Friday, 2015-01-16

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adam__Hello everyone, I may have found a bug in gpsd recipe. Its udev rule ( executes a file name "gpsd.hotplug.wrapper". However the wrapper file is nowhere to be found in the recipe.00:03
adam__Can someone pleaes take a look? I may be missing something. Perhaps udev is that magical00:03
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dtmLetoThe2nd: i see.  so you're saying that booting a modern stripped down linux kernel that's good enough to reach a shell, is difficult in 4 or 8MB of RAM?06:46
dtmis that even with compressed RAM and swap?06:47
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RagBalIs there a way to configure a channel for smart when generating the rootfs? For ipk I used FEED_DEPLOYDIR_BASE_URI but I can't seem to find this for rpm07:37
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LetoThe2nddtm: i'm not saying super complicated, but it will certainly require thoughtful selection of kernel features, and won't offer much more than a busybox07:57
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LetoThe2nddtm: from a first and very rough estimate, for example my not-too-bloated kernel on a sama5 eats up roughly 4m08:02
LetoThe2nderr 10MByte08:02
LetoThe2ndso you'll certainly hit areas where you have to take out substantial parts when you want to run the whole system in 4M08:03
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dRbiGhello. i apologise for my lamenting; i did manage to build a working kernel and image after all08:59
dRbiGnow i wonder what's the best way to build additional packages, e.g. dropbear09:00
dRbiGwiki FAQ suggests using IMAGE_INSTALL_append09:01
dRbiGi'm afraid using that and running `bitbake core-image-minimal` will still do a lot more work than just build that single package that i want to add09:03
LetoThe2ndwell then how about bitbake dropbear?09:04
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dRbiGis there a way to get valid targets/recipes for bitbake?09:06
LetoThe2ndyou can just browse your layers and see what .bb files you find :)09:07
dRbiGso basically find . -iname '*.bb'?09:07
mago_dRbiG: bitbake-layers show-recipes09:10
mago_(it'll give you basically the same information as a find *.bb though)09:11
dtmLetoThe2nd: ok.09:12
dRbiGmago_: that works fine, thank you09:12
dRbiGyeah, bitbake dropbear ought to work09:13
dRbiGbut first, let's see if my today's kernel will have working ethernet09:13
mago_just doing bitbake dropbear won't include dropbear in your rootfs image though, it'll only build the dropbear binary package09:14
dtmLetoThe2nd: what do you mean about busybox?  that's just an embedded app suite on top of linux09:14
dRbiGmago_: that's exactly what i'm looking for09:14
dtmLetoThe2nd: so i mean yeah once you got linux ported, then i assume you'd be able to compile busybox and such09:14
dRbiGi don't want to rebuild the rootfs everytime i want to add a package09:14
LetoThe2nddtm: i know what busybox is, thank you.09:14
dtmLetoThe2nd: i know you do.  so i was confused as to why you're answering about it, to a question about the kernel ^_^09:15
mago_dRbiG: ok; if you want to install binary packages on your device, you will need a package manager on the rootfs. So you probably want IMAGE_FEATURES += "package-management"09:15
LetoThe2nddtm: i mean that such a constrained system will not be able to run a reasably sized, comfortable userspace. you'll be stuck with busybox, and probably even static linking.09:15
dtmLetoThe2nd: oh yes definitely09:15
dtmLetoThe2nd: reasonably sized is not an objective09:16
dtmLetoThe2nd: i was wondering if someone could slim the kernel as you say, with ram and swap compression (if we end up with swap), and then maybe SDL or some embedded opengl framebuffer09:17
LetoThe2nddtm: sdl or ogl certainly, no way.09:17
RagBalIs there a way to configure a channel for smart when generating the rootfs? For ipk I used FEED_DEPLOYDIR_BASE_URI but I can't seem to find this for rpm09:17
dRbiGmago_: yes, added that early on09:17
dtmLetoThe2nd: i couldn't find any info about any embedded opengl.  there used to be an embedded mesa.09:18
dtmbut it was deprecated i guess09:18
LetoThe2nddtm: and remember that compression and swap are also costly in terms of ram, before they kick in.09:18
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dtmLetoThe2nd: ok.  i haven't ever used them.09:18
mago_hey bluelightning09:18
bluelightningmorning mago_, all09:18
LetoThe2ndfor a kernel that boots in 4mb incl userland, you'll probably have to get rid of swap, modules, and about all filesystems.09:18
LetoThe2nd.. or go back to, maybe 2.6.18 or such.09:19
dtmLetoThe2nd: i would guess that you'd have to basically have a single-process and kernel image09:19
RagBalbluelightning, is there a way to configure a channel for smart when generating the rootfs? For ipk I used FEED_DEPLOYDIR_BASE_URI but I can't seem to find this for rpm. I saw your message in the mail archive but couldn't find any new things on it
dtmnot unlike a normal cartridge game09:19
dtmLetoThe2nd: so you couldn't get SDL or opengl in 8MB RAM?  is there an embedded opengl?09:20
LetoThe2nddtm: think for a second how much only the framebuffers would need.09:20
dtmLetoThe2nd: ok09:21
LetoThe2nddtm: 4mb kernel+userlang almost certainly means "no display, or some super tiny monochrome hack at maximum"09:21
dtmi believe linux 2.0 and 2.2 were used for many embedded devices even when 2.4 was current, in 199909:22
dtmi remember that someone had *some* really stripped version running in 1MB of RAM.09:22
LetoThe2nddtm: feel free to subtract 1999 from 2015 to find out how many years it has been since that09:22
dtmi do feel so very fancy free, yes.09:23
LetoThe2nddtm: and of course - go back to ancient software, with ancient feature sets, then you get ancient resource footprints.09:23
bluelightningRagBal: there is PACKAGE_FEED_URIS... somehow we have managed not to document that, but it's basically just a space-separated list of URIs for the repos09:23
RagBalbluelightning, will look into that, thanks!09:24
dtmLetoThe2nd: so do you know offhand what RAM minimum would be considered normal for embedding the smallest opengl or other 3D library implementation, even an old one, that people may still use today?09:25
abelloniseeing that he typical opengl library size is between 2MB and 4MB, I4m not sure how you want to use opengl with only 4MB of RAM09:26
LetoThe2nddtm: i don't have numbers, but i guess something along the lines 64mb ram, 32mb rootfs should be enough to get opengl ready.09:26
dtmabelloni: yeah i'm saying that there's a 4MB and an 8MB profile09:26
dRbiGseems i got the ethernet working; now i need dhcp and dropbear09:26
dtmLetoThe2nd: okay09:27
dRbiGi wonder if i will get systemd service files within the packages09:27
LetoThe2nddtm: neither 4mb nor 8mb will suffice. like i said. just do the math on the framebuffers.09:27
dtmLetoThe2nd: ok.09:27
dtmLetoThe2nd: well i do thank you for the insight on a quasi-silly question <309:27
dtmit's a historically significant point of general curiosity09:28
dtmin part, we were wondering if it was actually feasible for the people who did claim to have gotten linux and x11 working, back in that time09:29
dtmmysteriously unreleased!  :-D09:29
dtmthey didn't claim any 3D software.09:30
dtmso i know that an old linux and X11 is possible in 4MB, because i did that on a 386, and it sucked.09:30
dtm5MB with swap, anyway.09:31
dtmso you say a modern kernel+userspace can fit in 4MB.  what kernel version?  and apparently ram compression is out of the question.  mesa-sdl 3.4 from 2007 takes about 2MB RAM according to and might require an older kernel.  so that's ~6MB.  a single max res framebuffer (640x480x24bit) is 2457600 bytes so I guess we'd do low res 320x240 at 614400 bytes.  So assuming you ported all this to the hardware, that leaves room for a pretty big app09:47
dtm and some other libs.  then you factor in how wrong all assumptions are, and it's "maybe"?09:47
LetoThe2nddtm: read up here (and on dependent buzzwords) to get an impression of what can be don on such low end platforms with significant effort09:51
dtmLetoThe2nd: oh, buzzwords!  thanks!09:52
dtmi think i remember reading about uclinux in about 1997, on the 6800009:52
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dtmLetoThe2nd: it's very kind of you to look up URLs.  that first one is pretty good.  4MB RAM. but does uclinux always have no MMU support?  it seems like you'd want MMU software support if you have MMU hardware, given how fragile things sound without it.10:02
dtmfrom here it sounds like there's no MMU or memory protection etc at all10:03
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LetoThe2nddtm: correct.10:04
LetoThe2ndone of the drawbacks if you want to go super tiny.10:05
dtmLetoThe2nd: well ya better know what you're doing then!  nothing new to a game console ;)10:06
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dtmLetoThe2nd: that uclinux faq i just pasted says it's linux 2.0.38.  so it's immune to the ping crash, ok!  :-D  so the url you pasted says they have linux 3.2, so I guess they made a unique modernized fork of uclinux?  which isn't part of the main project/10:09
dtmthey have 755kB of RAM in use, by the linux 3.2 kernel and such, after bootup?  on a system with 4MB total.  wow.10:09
dtmso i guess their version only runs on their hardware10:10
LetoThe2nddtm: no idea what they have exactly, os its mostly out of my focus of interest. i know it exists, thats about all.10:10
LetoThe2ndbut yes, this is *highly* hardware specific.10:10
dtmhence a lot more effort especially if you aren't targeting their ARM family10:12
dtma general question in comparing the stock linux source trees... is linux 3.2 a lot more modular and can thus be easily configured smaller than, say, the overall smaller 2.0 and 2.4?10:14
LetoThe2ndfrom my professional point of view (e.g., i do embedded systems for a living): this is only of academic interest, or if you are targeting a product with volumes in the 100k pcs/anno + X size. in any other case, the dev costs will easily outweigh the hardware cost savings.10:15
LetoThe2nd(and both are not in my focus.)10:16
dtmyes academic interest10:17
abelloniI don't think you save anything on the hardware10:21
abelloni4MB of ram is probably more expensive than 128 now10:21
dtmabelloni: ha!  no kiddin?  it's such an odd item huh?10:23
dtmkinda like 18" dishwashers instead of 24"? lol10:23
abelloniI would say that it is a matter of volume10:29
LetoThe2ndwe're having hell of a time usually getting rom/ram chips in the megabyte range for our older products here10:32
abelloniwe have a customer designing a new board because DDR chip are getting too expensive10:36
abelloniversus DDR210:36
LetoThe2ndtotally understandable10:37
dtmLetoThe2nd: are you wanting to find such small ram chips because they take less power or what?10:38
dtmi just bought an 18" dishwasher btw, originally priced about double the equivalent 24" dishwasher with identical componentry10:38
dtmthough with a lot of special Sears discounts to bring it back down ;)10:39
dtmwhich they don't even sell in stores, because it's the same product but less popular one-off manufacturing10:39
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LetoThe2nddtm: no, we sometimes need those chips if we have to produce spare parts for hardware designed years, sometimes tens of years ago.10:43
dtmLetoThe2nd: oh right.  very good.10:44
dtmso you can't just stockpile them10:45
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LetoThe2ndyou usually can't store smt components longer than a few years if you need reliable solder characteristics for manufacturing.10:47
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dtmLetoThe2nd: oh i didn't know that.  i'd heard of hard drive lubricants gumming up on the shelf.  interesting.10:57
dtmLetoThe2nd: is MIPS still a hot thing for embedding like it was in the 90s with N64 and PlayStation and whatnot, or has that all gone to ARM?11:01
abelloniit depends on the product11:03
rburton1there's still a reasonable amount of mips out there11:04
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rburtonmy networked audio stuff is all mips, for exxample11:05
rburtonstill trying to convince them to switch from buildroot to yocto too11:05
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dtmis R4300i (aka NEC VR4300, a variant of R4200) still a thing?  does it get deployed in many products?  is that relevant to current source trees?  is support for that still buildable, say, in linux 3.2?11:10
dtmi know some embedded stuff still gets modernized as the same product (miniaturized etc), or some gets totally obsolete11:11
dtmmany years later11:11
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LetoThe2ndi'm totally not from mips land, so i can't say anything there.11:13
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dtm"There also some low cost Cortex-M boards such as the STM32F4-Discovery board available for around 15 USD, but there is unfortunately not enough RAM (192KB) to be able to run uClinux."   <-- lol11:26
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pespinHi, I am having problems while building an image sdk together with deb packaging system.11:29
pespinI already had to add self.target_pm.install_complementary(self.d.getVar('SDKIMAGE_INSTALL_COMPLEMENTARY', True)) to DpkgSdk in poky/meta/lib/oe/sdk.py11:30
pespinin order to get -dev packages installed automatically to it by using dev-pkgs feature11:30
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pespinAfter that, I can see in log.do_populate_sdk that it tries to install all the dev packages11:31
pespinbut when trying to install them, APT fails because it says some dependencie sfor some packages are broken because the deps are not going to be installed11:32
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pespinfor instance, in IMAGE_INSTALL I have some gstreamer stuff. Gstreamer dev packages depend on pulseaudio-dev which in turn depends on avahi-dev, which in turn automatically depends on "avahi" package.11:33
pespinbut as avahi is not in my IMAGE_INSTALL var, apt doesn't want to install it to the sdk and then installation of the dev packages is not happening.11:34
pespinI could fix it by running apt-get install -f after installing packages by modifying DpkgPM, but that's not the right way of doing it, as in fact it's hiding some important errors among packages being installed11:36
pespinwhat do you think is the best approach to solve that? do you consider that a bug on bitbake? or on the recipes side?11:37
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bluelightning_pespin: it would be a bug in the metadata, but I'm unsure of the exact correct fix11:43
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bluelightning_the first thing to do would be to file a bug in bugzilla, if you wouldn't mind11:43
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pespinbluelightning: Hi, for the moment I created this bug + patch, which should solve the first part of the problem I faced ->
yoctiBug 7160: normal, Undecided, ---, richard.purdie, NEW , SDKIMAGE_FEATURES not used by deb packaging system12:20
pespinI will now fillup another bug regarding the whole context/problem12:21
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lpappgood morning12:22
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pespinbluelightning: I also created the ther one regarding the dependencies ->
yoctiBug 7166: normal, Undecided, ---, richard.purdie, NEW , Dependency problems with deb packaging system when installing dev packages on SDK generation12:48
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mago_why is linux-yocto using separate repos for each kernel version (3.14, 3.17 etc)?13:01
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bluelightningmago_: I'd assume it has something to do with the single meta branch, but zeddii might be able to explain further13:08
mago_couldn't you have one meta-branch per version-branch too?13:08
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agherzanHi guys.13:09
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agherzanAny idea how to get rid if the systemd error systemd-tmpfiles[108]: chmod(/var/tmp) failed: no such file or...13:10
agherzansystemd is trying to create these dirs from the tmp and var tmpfiles .conf files13:11
agherzanBut these too are already created by base files as symlinks.13:11
agherzanHence these errors: chmod(/var/tmp) failed, chmod(var/log) failed.13:12
agherzanIs this a known issue?13:13
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RagBalIsn't smart capable of removing packages installed as dependency while removing something?13:16
RagBalI can't seem to find any parameter for that13:16
mago_bluelightning: also, how does standard/base relate to the kernel stable branches? i noticed the 3.14 standard/base has quite a few commits that are not in gregk's stable repo on his 3.14.y branch. Do commits flow both directions here? standard/base stuff goes upstream and gregk commits keep getting merged into standard base?13:17
bluelightningmago_: I'm not sure I'm afraid, another thing that zeddii / dvhart / tomz / nitink would be able to answer much better than I could13:18
mago_ok, thanks13:18
bluelightningone of them should be here shortly I would think13:19
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* zeddii reads13:39
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zeddiistandard/base are common patches to the yocto kernel, these are not the same category as greg's stable patches, they can be features, or fixes that are specific to our use case. Everything merges into standard/base (LTSI, -stable, CVEs, etc) and then to all the BSP branches.13:41
hugovshi, i'm creating a i386 bsp layer with yocto-bsp script and it always add a CONFIG_MATOM=y13:43
hugovsto kernel config13:43
hugovswhen i boot up an amd geode, kernel complains about a missing instruction (movbe).13:44
hugovseven if a choose i586 in the tuning options...13:45
agherzanRelated to the problem I stated above: I pushed a patch to oe-core as I got no feedback. We can trace this topic on ml. Thanks anyway.13:46
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-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #160 of nightly-x32 is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
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dRbiGis it possible with yocto to enter some env that will have the toolchain setup so that I can manually build software?14:39
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darkhorsebluelightning: hi, in one of my packages which inherits module.bbclass (for building out-of-tree modules) I assign to FILES_${PN} but it does come out be empty and hence not populating the main package. I haven't seen this behaviour before14:45
bluelightningdarkhorse: are you setting FILES_${PN} before or after the "inherit module" line?14:47
darkhorsebluelightning: oh..before14:47
bluelightningdarkhorse: right, in this instance that won't work because module.bbclass sets it to "" explicitly14:47
bluelightningmove it to after, problem solved :)14:47
bluelightningI can't tell yet but I do wonder if it's kept empty for a reason though14:48
bluelightningah, right... so the idea is that it automatically splits out all kernel module(s) produced by the recipe into kernel-module-<modulename> packages just like the kernel itself, and then the main package is just an empty meta-package that pulls in all of those to help in the case where there is more than one14:50
bluelightningso I guess it depends on what these extra files are for; if they should be associated with one of the kernel modules in particular the better thing to do would be to add those files to the individual module package instead14:51
darkhorsebluelightning: i see.. so the module.bbclass is a bit special. i tried "bitbake -e  to see who is setting it to empty but unfortantely could figure out14:53
darkhorsebluelightning: moving it after 'inherit module' didn't change anything for me14:53
darkhorsebluelightning: here's assignments that i can see when i dump environment14:54
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darkhorsebluelightning:after all different assignment that are happening to this variable, it kind of overrides it with the following message: rename (to) [expandKeys]14:56
bluelightningdarkhorse: somewhat confusingly you may find two entries for it as FILES_${PN} and FILES_<actual name>, see if you can see both of those14:58
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darkhorsebluelightning: you are a star :-)15:03
darkhorsebluelightning: i would have given up long ago, without your help15:03
bluelightningI aim to please :)15:04
Crofton|workbuy him a beer15:04
Crofton|workand come tofosdem and man the booth :)15:04
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darkhorsebluelightning: how can i buy him a beer? I am more than happy to15:04
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darkhorsebluelightning: sorry it was a qustion to Crofton15:05
bluelightningwell, no beers necessary unless you happen to be at one of the conferences I'm able to go to ;)15:05
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TuTizzhi all, bluelightning, I would like to build a image specific sdk ("bitbake my_image -c populate_sdk") containing ./sysroots/x86_64-pokysdk-linux/usr/bin/qmake. How can I add toolchain to my image?15:13
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-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #158 of build-appliance is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
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pespinTuTizz: I do that by adding "inherit populate_sdk_qt5" to my image15:34
TuTizzpespin, ok ty15:34
pespinTuTizz: and this too I think -> TOOLCHAIN_HOST_TASK += " nativesdk-qtbase-tools-dev "15:35
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mago_whats the benefit of moving patches from your kernel recipes SRC_URI_append_mymachine into a mymachine.scc-file and a patch-directive? i don't really see the point, and doing so also makes bitbake unable to detect changes to patches15:47
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bluelightningzeddii: ^16:00
darkhorsebluelightning: getting very close to generating image identical to my existing build system output - init manager is one of the last remaining issues. how can i completely remove sysvinit support provided by yocto? I have already tried setting VIRTUAL-RUNTIME_initscripts = "" in my distro.conf16:00
bluelightningdarkhorse: DISTRO_FEATURES_BACKFILL_CONSIDERED = "sysvinit" should do it, as mentioned in
bluelightningnote that changing that will probably trigger a bunch of rebuilding I'm afraid, since lots of recipes look at DISTRO_FEATURES16:03
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darkhorsebluelightning: that's fine. i will try that. but let me mention that i actually don't want any init manager at all. so no sysvinit no systemd. i have my own 'pre-cooked' template files that i just want to copy over16:04
bluelightningdarkhorse: ok, that shouldn't be an issue - you'd do the above and also _not_ add "systemd" to DISTRO_FEATURES, and that should work16:05
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bluelightningbuilding with no init system (well, more often with a custom flat init script) is definitely supported - poky-tiny does it for example16:06
mario-goulartHi.  Is there an easy way to get layer dependencies from
mario-goulartFor example, I'd like to know what layers meta-browser depends on.16:07
mago_mario-goulart: i think you can get the layer dependencies from the layers themself nowadays. Have a look in layer/conf/layer.conf and look for LAYERDEPENDS_.. lines16:07
bluelightningmario-goulart: assuming you mean programmatically, yes, in fact Chong Lu is working on adding functionality to bitbake-layers to query that - see
bluelightningmario-goulart: as you can see from my reply, it's WIP, but the patch may still be useful as an example of how to use the API16:08
mario-goulartmago_: right, but then I need a clone of each layer to get the full dependencies chain.16:08
mago_mario-goulart: why do you want to extract dependencies for layers that you haven't cloned?16:08
bluelightningyes and unfortunately most layers don't set LAYERDEPENDS16:09
mario-goulartmago_: to generate a manifest file (repo) for projects which use multiple layers.16:09
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mario-goulartIIUC, I could get what I want by requesting and , but it seems that I can't do that atomically.16:10
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dguthrieIs it possible to have a recipe which has always to be run, i.e. bitbake see's fit to execute compile and install every time you run it.16:12
bluelightningdguthrie: possibly depending on details - can you explain what you're trying to achieve?16:12
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darkhorsebluelightning: removing the sysvinit using DISTRO_FEATURES_BACKFILL_CONSIDERED = "sysvinit" didn't go very well. i get the following error during recipes parsing stage:16:24
darkhorsebluelightning: ERROR: Please ensure that your setting of VIRTUAL-RUNTIME_init_manager (sysvinit) matches the entries enabled in DISTRO_FEATURES16:25
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rburtondarkhorse: sounds like your init manager is still set to sysvinit16:30
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darkhorserburton: yes..that's possibly because in my conf/bitbake.conf i see DISTRO_FEATURES_BACKFILL="pulseaudio sysvinit" but then i thought  DISTRO_FEATURES_BACKFILL_CONSIDERED should remove it - no?16:36
rburtonno, that literally just messes with the distro features16:39
rburtonset that variable to systemd and you'll be sorted16:39
rburton(pretty sure this is in the documentation :)16:39
darkhorserburton: thanks. i will try it out16:42
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dguthriebluelighting: I am building from multiple build directories into a single deploy directory. The hardware I am using needs more images that just the kernel and root filesystem. The final recipe that combines these into a single image for the software upgrader can't tell if it's dependencies have changed, so I was the final software upgrade image creation recipe to execute it's tasks all the time17:15
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darkhorsezeddii_home: hi can you help me with some kernel initramfs issue?17:30
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bluelightningdguthrie: ah ok... you could mark the tasks that do that end processing as "nostamp", that would mean they execute every time they are called for rather than being stamped so they only run when the inputs change (which is the default)18:05
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