Monday, 2016-01-25

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* nerdboy thumbs-up yocto @ SCaLE03:19
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b00^wkanyone familiar with Timesys Factory here ?08:28
b00^wki'm trying to compare that with OE/Yocto, and would be nice if someone could suggest what are main pros of Yocto vs Timesys' Factory08:30
b00^wkthe only big difference between then so far I could see is Ts Factory appears to be 'buildroot' like, but they do packages  & allow you to roll your own distro08:31
b00^wkalike yocto08:31
-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #614 of nightly-mips is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #624 of nightly-x86 is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
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-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #261 of nightly-mips64 is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
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mckoangood morning09:10
mckoanb00^wk: Yocto Project is open source free software09:11
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nerdboyoingo boingo09:19
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mckoanLinuxLink ask that subscribers identify Timesys as the source for distributed platforms that have been built with Linux components and tools. LOL09:25
mckoanyou get open source stuff but you have vendor lock-in09:25
nerdboybest of both worlds09:31
nerdboyer, wait a minutes...09:31
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-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #601 of nightly-fsl-ppc is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
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-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #260 of nightly-arm64 is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
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b00^wk2mckoan, hello12:32
b00^wk2mckoan, yea i know yocto is open source, but i didn't know that stuff you wrote about Timesys vendor lock-in12:34
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b00^wk2hmm, that of course is interesting, all the stuff from the Timesys Factory is open source, but you must identify them as the source ..12:41
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b00^wk2and i think you do need to have a support agreement / service to get the factory & the sources. And their support of course.12:45
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b00^wk2I did find that for me personally it was easier to understand / jump into & use Timesys Factory though, than Yocto ..12:47
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geotheoryHello. Anyone know why an update-rc.d boot script might run on shutdown?  Service created by command "update-rc.d defaults 99"12:52
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rburtongeotheory: because that's what init scripts do?12:54
geotheoryI understood that this setup line would create a boot service, not a shutdown service..12:55
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rburtonthat creates startup and shutdown links12:55
geotheoryFile /etc/rc6.d contains K99boot_script.sh12:55
rburtonjust check whether the script is being called as start or stop in the script12:55
geotheoryIt's definitely being called on shutdown.  It runs twice during a reboot cycle12:56
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jkugeotheory: what ross means is that that's how init scripts work. your script needs to deal with it: see other scripts for examples13:00
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geotheoryYeah I'm looking for an example. Not found one yet13:01
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geotheoryAs usual found lots of documentation, no actual examples..
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geotheoryjku, this looks closest match
geotheoryShould I be trying "update-rc.d myScript start 01 2 ." ?13:09
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jkuyou can, but the script still should check for "start", "stop" and "restart"13:11
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jkuI assume you have a linux system you're building yocto with? that should contain plenty of init scripts, right? No guearantees they'll be well written but...13:12
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geotheoryjku: using stock Poky so can't bake anything new into the system13:23
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ryansturmerWhat is the best way to modify "core files" in a layer - like for instance, I want to specify the root filesystem as read-only (by modifying /etc/fstab) -13:43
ryansturmerI don't want to furnish a new fstab wholesale, I basically want to patch the one provided in another recipe13:44
aratiuwrite a bbappend to the recipe which installs said file13:45
ryansturmerNow when I do that, am I modifying the file after it's been installed?  Or am I modifying it before that recipe installs it?  I have done very simple append files, but the the order of operations is often confusing to me13:46
aratiuyes, you should modify the file after it's installed if you want to just add stuff to the default /etc/fstab, just create a do_install_append or something similar (any function can be appended to) and do something like this in there "echo tralala >> /etc/fstab"13:48
ryansturmerRather, echo tralalala >> ${D}/${sysconfdir}/fstab13:49
aratiuyes, sure13:49
ryansturmerBecause at that stage I'm not in the target system and have to use the variables provided for the installed paths?13:50
aratiujust look at how the "main" recipe addresses the files and use the same method in the bbappend13:50
ryansturmerIf I have several different recipes appending the same one - how is the order of appends resolved?13:51
aratiuthrough the layer ordering in bblayers.conf i guess13:52
aratiubut why should you have multiple bbappends for the same .bb?13:52
aratiuI've never actually had the need for this except when using layers where each had its own bbappend13:53
ryansturmerWell, for instance, I have a recipe for my software distribution that appends core files to modify a few things (like, default hostname, etc)13:59
ryansturmerBut then I have a specific tool that modifies /etc/fstab13:59
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ryansturmerthey don't really have a thing to do with each other13:59
ryansturmerand in this case, the order really doesn't matter13:59
ryansturmerI was just curious because I could imagine it might in some cases.14:00
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FileNotFoundIs there a way to configure the Replaces field in a debiian control file via a .bb file?14:13
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rowlphIs there a known problem with ifup running if-up.d scripts in Fido? I've installed resolvconf which puts 000resolvconf in if-up.d but when running ifup -v eth0 I don't see any mention of it being ran?14:23
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ryansturmerSo there is a deploy folder, with images of my rootfs15:12
ryansturmerwhich is growing and growing, every time I do a build15:12
ryansturmerI get a new many-hundred-megabyte sized file/manifest everytime I mint a new image15:12
ryansturmerit seems like these files are of historical interest only, but there is a very clear README_DONT_MANUALLY_DELETE_FILES_IN_THIS_DIRECTORY.txt file15:13
ryansturmerthat admonishes me on my attempt to remove them, so I am afraid to do so.15:13
ryansturmerbitbake -c clean image-name (as the file suggests) does not clear them out15:14
ryansturmerDoes anybody know what do?15:14
CTtpollardit will time stamp the builds15:14
ryansturmeryeah, they're stamped15:14
CTtpollardand it links them to the non timestamped versions, iirc15:14
ryansturmerit's like image-name-timestamp-rootfs.rootfs.ext4 etc15:14
CTtpollardI think if you keep the non timestamped ones, you're ok to delete the others, but I can't guarantee that15:16
phako_how does yocto manage to add debuglinks when cross-building? objcopy seems to look at the full path and there is no way to specify a sysroot etc?15:16
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ryansturmerI just obliterated the whole /tmp directory under my build folder15:26
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ryansturmerit seems to have provoked some extra work from bitbake, but it's not having to rebuild the whole thing, so I don't think I'm any worse for wear.15:27
CTtpollardsstate cache and your download dir are probably meaning it doesn't have to work from scratch15:28
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b00^wk2I'm reading about BitBake, here :      What does this mean:   "Must be able to be self contained, rather than tightly integrated into the build machine's root filesystem."15:32
b00^wk2(I'm thinking its comparing this to how things where with buildroot, but I don't know what they mean here ..)15:32
kergothit means what it says. nothing gets installed into the host's rootfs, and nothing is used from there other than a few dependencies we explicitly identify15:33
kergothalso there are no distro dependencies15:33
frayessentially, each task when run is independent of other tasks.. the corresponding build system that you make around bitbake needs to understand this..15:33
kergothsome distro build tools require they build on the distro they're building for..15:33
fray...and as kergoth said, the results often mean that you don't screw with the host, and dependencies need to be fully qualified15:33
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b00^wk2ah. for some reason I thought its to do with using Linux usually found tools for building :)15:34
b00^wk2now this makes more sense I think : don't use say host's fs layout ..15:35
fraywhile realistically speaking you need Linux as your build system type.. the design of the system is such that it could be adjusted to not need a Linux host..15:35
fraybitbake -itself- doesn't need Linux, it's some of the things that OE uses that currently do15:35
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frayyou have to remember bitbake is similar in concept to 'make'.  It's the task scheduler, variable handler and some fetch facilities and other utility functions..  but it's not the "build system"15:36
fraythe build system is implemented with bitbake handling those tasks, and the rest of the system being implemented separately.  This is where oe-core comes into place.. it puts down the ground work for the build system.. which can further be augmented by additional layers15:37
kergothindeed, well said15:37
b00^wk2its the rest that matters quite a bit, me thinks ?15:38
kergoth may also be of use15:38
frayother then the way the variables are handled in bitbaek (defined, expanded, etc).. most developers will never have to know anything about bitbake..15:38
b00^wk2a bit hard to imagine how bitbake & oe would work anywhere else but on linux15:38
frayoe-core on the other hand is where things are useful to know details..15:38
fraybitbake/oe-core SHOULD be able to run on most unix platforms.. but there are some tools that are Linux specific (right now) that are in use..15:39
fraywe've (over the years) done research projects on thigns like Darwin support and gotten far enough that it looks possible, but there is simply hasn't been a desire to finish the work15:39
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frayThe primary tool that needs to be implemented is 'pseudo'.  There is a darwin port of pseudo -- but recently some Darwin 'security' features have caused pseudo to not longer work in some cases..15:40
frayApple doesn't have a defined configuration for allowing the behavior in this new security model -- so it's unclear if it can be fixed in a sustainable way.. (but I don't believe anyone is actively working on it either)15:40
frayit is likely possible to do this with BSD OSes..  (in the past I'd also say Solaris and AIX, but frankly as developmetn machines they're pretty much dead)15:41
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frayI doubt Cygwin / mingw32 will ever have all of the facilities we need to make this work... oe-core assumes the filesystem has standard unix permission mechanisms, such as users, groups, octal permission set and xattributes..15:42
b00^wk2may be you can hook up ext3 with windows ext driver ... ?15:43
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frayyou'd need the filesystem capabilities to write out a file and do things like chown, chmod...15:44
fraysince there is no similar capability that I am aware of in cygwin/mingw32 that is a blocker..15:44
kergothHmm, I think cygwin gives you some of that, which mingw doesn't, we don't leverage the former at all, but not certain.15:44
fray(and of course you'd need to go throught he programs being compiled and make sure they can handle being built on Cygwin/mingw32... it's a problem that luckily is easy to solve with a VM solution.. so it's not been worth the time and effort.)15:44
b00^wk2Oh, here is question: does the yocto project actually check that all the cross compiled apps run on target as expected ?15:45
frayDarwin/BSD would both be more likely to be made work without a monumental effort.. but again, with VMs being 'cheap'.. it hasn't been anyone's priority15:45
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fraythe overall community, including the Yocto Project does regularly check the packages are running.. the Yocto Project has specific tests -- but I don't know off hand the test coverage if it's 100% or not.. (even 100% it would be a does it run, not does it function)15:46
fraymost of the tests are more around overall system behavior testing which can be used to show that the common workflows and pieces of the system are intergrated and working properly..15:46
frayThe YP does do regular system behavior/integration testing on all four architectures.. then you add in the commercial OSVs, and that expands quickly to include numerous SOCs from various processor families..15:47
b00^wk2fray, how much of oe-core does one need to know, to customize local setup15:47
fraythe system also has built in (compile-time) checks that verify certain atrributes are correct that are known, if wrong, to caused problems15:48
b00^wk2local setup  = produce my custom distro ..15:48
fraycustomize, not a lot..   you should be familiar with the variable syntax..  recipe format and how to create an image..15:48
frayohh and the location of the .conf, configuration files so you can tailor or create new ones..)15:48
frayunderstanding layers is a next logical step, since for maintenance you don't want to change the downloaded system -- you want to have your own place for custom configurations, recipe changes and other components..15:49
b00^wk2i feel so frustrated with myself :(  We've finished a week of Yocto course a few months back, and now i don't know where to start.   I find kconfig & make files easier to understand :(15:49
fraymuch of this is covered in the YP online docs..15:49
b00^wk2(How Timesys Factory does  it .. and buildroot)15:49
frayThere is a learning curve here..  no doubt about it.  The key is this is a distribution builder..15:50
b00^wk2yea ?15:50
b00^wk2what you mean15:50
frayin my experience the other systems are less about building custom linux distributions and more about 'configuring someone elses distribution'15:50
frayThe place to start in pull down poky -- or bitbake/oe-core and the meta-yocto layers (poky includes all of those in one bundle)15:50
b00^wk2fray,  could you explain abit on this last point ?15:50
b00^wk2someone elses one15:50
frayrun the oe-init-env <project> script as show in the docs..  open up the conf/local.conf and start exploring15:51
frayThe old model of embedded Linux was..  I'm going to build a single distribution, which cross compiles..15:51
b00^wk2( i did some of those .. by hand :))15:51
frayThe user may be able to change the settings I wish them to change, but it's still realitivity a static distribution..15:51
fraythe common changes would be to the kernel configuration and some select components..15:51
b00^wk2once off , 'cooked' i think its called15:52
fraythe user then builds, modifies some runtime settings and you have a cross-compiled Linux system..15:52
fraythe OE based system, you CAN do that if you want..15:52
frayBUT it also allows you to go much much deeper and define all of the Operating system components and how they interact.. there are a ton more predefined switches.. but you can also add your own switches very easily..15:53
fraythink of it as a bucket of rope.. you can either build fantastic creations -- or hang yourself..15:53
fraystart simple and you'll avoid the later15:53
kergothwe have a pool of metadata which is shared by different distributions, target hardware, and images, which fosters a great deal of collaboration. lots of projects can work together, despite fairly large differences in goals and markets15:53
frayyou need to start with building the system and looking at the local.conf components and getting a feel for what they are doing.15:53
fraythen look at the local.conf.extended.sample (I think that is what it's called) for more options..15:54
fraythen start to look at the 'distribution' configuration files (ability to define a custom distro), machine configuration component [if you care about BSPs]...15:54
fraythen start to look into recipes...15:54
frayand if you want even further capabilities start to explore the bbclasses and other components..15:54
b00^wk2yea, bsps would be one place I would look into ..15:55
fraya lot of people 'skip' the distribution configuration pieces.. and only care about the local.conf and recipes and that is it..15:55
fraythe BSPs is another topic, and for that I'd refer you to the docs there..15:55
frayI generally do operating system pieces myself, and stay away from the kernel..15:55
b00^wk2well, i would need to look at many places i guess . like, i find default image size is fat, for e.g., so I would have to start from 0, and add all myself15:55
fray(build system, toolchains, cross compilation issues, sdks, and target software.. but rarely BSP or kernel)15:56
b00^wk2then,  i want to say modify how intiramfs is created, overlay that15:56
b00^wk2then, customize bootloader, ..15:56
b00^wk2then .. ouch, lots of places15:56
frayfirst learn the basics of the local.conf and distro pieces..15:56
kergothwe have a lot of images provided. which image are you referring to as 'default'?15:56
b00^wk2err, minimal15:56
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b00^wk2or stripped15:56
frayya.. and as kergoth aluded to.. there is no 'default' image.. but there are lots of sample images15:56
fraywhen you get comfortable configuring the system, one of the first thigns to do in you own layer is to define an image recipe..15:57
b00^wk2ah, here is a quick question, i 've asked our consultant but i think he said no:15:57
fraythen will let you tailor exactly what you want ont he target... one thing to keep in mind when doing an image recipe.  Specify as little and you -need-, this will allow the system to use it's dependency calculations to build it up15:57
frayyou never want to start big and pair -down-, it's MUCH harder15:58
fray(core-image-minimal is a pretty good starting point BTW.. it doesn't have a lot of extra stuff..)15:58
b00^wk2if i want to have 2 versions of the same image, one release, one debug.   but its same target & rest. is that very easy?15:58
b00^wk2for some reason way he explained i understood 'no', need to create many configs & stuff15:58
fraydepends, what is different between the two?  symbols or something more?15:58
b00^wk2extra programs15:58
b00^wk2extra compiler flags,15:58
fraythen you'd create two images..15:58
frayi.e. my-project-release, my-project-debug15:59
b00^wk2so you need to have two setups for images ?15:59
fraythe my-project-debug can INCLUDE the my-project-release, and add additional items..15:59
fraythen when you build you can do:  bitbake my-project-release my-project-debug  -- it'll then build both in a single command15:59
b00^wk2i see15:59
b00^wk2well, probably all compiler flags are different16:00
b00^wk2may be16:00
frayanother thing to be aware of.. OE always builds with debug symbols, and then breaks them out into '-dbg' packages with corresponding sources (unless you change the bheavior, which I do NOT suggest you do)16:00
b00^wk2and different bootloader options16:00
fraydifferent compiler flags is different projects then16:00
frayyou should -never- have to do that for regular development..16:00
b00^wk2which part ?16:01
frayit IS useful for special cases, but regular development keep it the same.. and only fall back when you have a problem that actually needs custom flags16:01
fraymost people with 'custom' flags do things like -O0 vs -O2 or -Os for release..16:01
fraythat is lovely, but it changes the behavior of the apps and actually makes debugging MUCH harder in the end..16:01
fraysince you end up with different behavior..16:01
b00^wk2like, enable debug symbols, (was it -g?)16:02
frayif you build everything (release and debug) with a single configuration, your -release- code is debuable..16:02
b00^wk2that is not going to release ..16:02
frayeverything in the system is build with -g.. and then the symbols are stripped into the -dbg..16:02
fraydon't release the -dbg to your customers.. those stay with you.. then you can cross-debug (or load to the device, say a debug image) the symbols.. and GDB knows how to deal with them16:02
b00^wk2ok, but sometimes, on tight system may be go full opt, which is hard to debug16:02
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b00^wk2(and may be production system is smaller )16:02
fraythis is the whole reason we're built the way we are..16:03
frayyou can do factory image cross-field debugging with the current system..16:03
frayif loop unrolling, or other GCC optimizations are a problem.. THEN and only then do you build a custom version of the app..16:03
b00^wk2with Yocto, i probably with one command can be building  rel|dbg  images for different boards, arch too? x86|arm| etc ..16:05
b00^wk2so it will generate many images16:05
frayit's more then one command, but you can do it in a single project for different architectures..16:05
b00^wk2(ha, i think that one Timesys can't do.. may be)16:05
fraynote though, when you change "MACHINE" (BSP/arch) targets, you have to do so linearly..  it will re-use what it can..16:05
fraybut it does work..16:05
frayif you look in the local.conf, you'll see: MACHINE ?= "value"16:05
frayMACHINE is defined to only be set to value if not yet defined..  (i.e. here is your default)..  MACHINE also is in the list of variables to inherit from the environment..16:06
frayso you can do:16:06
frayMACHINE=qemumips bitbake core-image-minimal16:06
frayMACHINE=qemuarm bitbake core-image-minimal16:06
frayand you now have a single project that has BOTH a qemumips and qemuarm build in it..16:06
fraywhatever was common between systems will also have been re-used16:06
fray...but it's linear, not parallel..  we're hoping in the next year to fix that in some way and allow for multiple parallel machines to be built in a single project...16:07
fray(this BTW is NOT a common use-case, but a specialized one)16:07
b00^wk2well actually , i think i don't , myself, care too much if its parallel16:07
fray(and moving to my commercial size, this is something that WR 8, based on YP 2.0, supports out of the box)16:08
fray'er.. size -> side..  (I work for Wind River)16:08
b00^wk2more that its a single project like , with different targets. but all sources, etc .. is same16:08
fraythere are others in here from Mentor, Enea and etc...16:08
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* fray has to go..16:10
frayothers int he channel may be able ot answer further questions16:10
b00^wk2fray, thanks !16:10
b00^wk2i myself have to go ..16:11
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ryansturmerIs there a good way to create a symbolic link in a recipe?16:18
rburtonwell, ln -s, obviously16:18
ryansturmerIs a link I create there going to be any good on my target system?16:19
ryansturmerI just have a ln -s in my do_install step16:19
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ryansturmerbut will that link be preserved in my image and point to the right place?16:19
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ryansturmersince it's linking two locations in my build directory?16:19
ryansturmer(Confession: I'm not sure how symbolic links actually work - do they preserve an absolute path to their target?  Won't that path be bad in my target installation since it's... on the target?)16:20
rburtonsymbol links contain whatever you tell them to contain16:21
rowlphIs there a package that contains fully functional ifup and ifdown executables, the one's in busybox appear to not support dns-nameservers in the /etc/network/interfaces file16:21
rburtonso it could be a relative path, or an absolute path, just make sure if you use an absolute path it doesn't contain pointers into the build directories16:22
rburtonthere's a tool 'lnr' in oe-core/scripts that is useful here16:22
rburtonto generate relative symbolic links when given absolute paths16:22
rburton(because ln —relative doesn't exist everywhere yet)16:22
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joshuaglaside, does it if we drop Debian 7?16:25
rburtonyeah i was just thinking that16:25
rburtonquite possibly16:25
rburtoni know where you're going with this16:26
ryansturmerHow do I get access to the lnr tool in my build, do I just DEPENDS on it?16:27
kergothjust run it. it's not a recipe, it's in the scripts dir which is in the PATH16:27
ryansturmeroh cool16:28
ryansturmerso presumably, if I replace my ln command with that, that will do the trick (Since I'm linking 2 places that are within my rootfs)16:28
kergothnote that it creates one link at at ime, and the second argument has to be the full path tot he link to create, not a directory to create it in16:29
kergothits syntax is rather more limited than gnu ln16:29
kergothbut yep, its quite handy16:29
joshuaglrburton: :-D16:30
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ryansturmerbuild is clicking away, we'll see how it goes.16:34
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ryansturmerWhen I am writing a recipe, and I'm not sure what's going on, I'd like to be able to print to a log - is there a way to do this easily?  I tried to simply cat a file, or echo an error message in a do_install() step, but my message doesn't appear in the corresponding log files in the build directory.19:38
ryansturmerI can tell that the do_install step is being executed19:39
ryansturmerbut nothing is going to the log, even if I try to send it by way of stderr19:39
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kergothryansturmer: bbnote, bbwarn, bberror, bbfatal20:00
kergotheven echo will end up in the log file for hte task20:00
kergothbut warn, error, and fatal will show up on the bitbake build console as well20:00
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ryansturmeroooh excellent kergoth20:28
ryansturmerthank you20:28
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ryansturmerIs there a way to affect the order of .bbappends other than layer priority?20:32
ryansturmerAnd while we're on that topic - how is the order of bbappends defined?  Is it related to the layer priority?20:36
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kergothryansturmer: bbappends are applied in layer priority order, yes21:14
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CardoeI'm having an error in license_create_manifest. The error is almost identical to but in a different package. I'm at a loss how to even debug it.21:18
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ryansturmerif I bitbake-layers show-appends : does that squirt out the appends to a specific recipe in priority order?21:24
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ryansturmerI'm varying my layer priority (by changing BBFILE_PRIORITY in my layer.conf) and the priority change is appearing in bitbake-layers show-layers21:29
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ryansturmerbut it doesn't appear to have any effect on the bitbake-layers show-appends21:29
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ryansturmer(I would think the appends would be shown in applied order here)21:29
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ryansturmerYes, no variation of the layer priority (changing BBFILE_PRIORITY_layername) seems to be affecting the append order -21:47
ryansturmer1) Is there a way i can get bitbake to spit out the fully appended do_install procedure to confirm my suspicions?21:48
ryansturmer2) Do i need to be doing something to let bitbake know I changed the layer conf21:48
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khem_gm all22:06
ant_homehi khem22:10
nerdboymove to hawaii?22:14
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khem_huh dont you know UGT
ant_homekhem: do you happen to have built mtd-utils static against musl?22:17
ant_homeIt'd be interesting to compare the size vs. klibc22:18
nerdboyyeah, too tired to think of better joke...22:18
khem_ant_home: good question, I havent tried it but should work well22:19
ant_homekhem_, oh, and kexec-tools too22:19
khem_ant_home: it might be worth a try to add --disable-shared --enabled-static22:19
khem_and see if it works22:19
ant_homeok, thx. I'm debugging kernel those days..once I have a bit of time I'll do a test22:19
khem_for these packages in a local layer22:19
khem_you can also hammer in -static to CFLAGS22:20
khem_and LDFLAGS22:20
ant_homeshould be less awkward than the klcc compiler...22:20
khem_it could be22:21
ant_homeI'll do that soon22:22
khem_but only if you use musl as your system libc22:22
khem_i.e. TCLIBC = "musl"22:22
ant_homeyes, last I tried there was some eror with a native package, weeks ago22:22
ant_homeseems fixed by now22:22
khem_if you just want to use musl for static parts and glibc for rest then spaghetti remains22:22
ant_homehe he22:23
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