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| Guest79 | agherzan JaMa | 07:32 |
|---|---|---|
| Guest79 | I said recently that i think there is a performance difference between "meta-raspberrypi" dunfell and kirkstone and i did tests. | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | The meta-layers im using: "meta-raspberrypi", "meta-openembedded", "poky", "my-layer" all of them kirkstone. also meta-layers same in dunfell. | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | - In "meta-raspberrypi" Dunfell, upgraded the kernel 5.4 to 5.15. | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | - In "meta-raspberrypi" Kirkstone, downgraded kernel 5.15 to 5.10. | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | - In "meta-raspberrypi" Kirkstone, downgraded kernel 5.15 to 5.4(the commit https://github.com/agherzan/meta-raspberrypi/commit/316b017c53f45da4fb76fab717f3e0a47b239f75) | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | - Also, i tried with "meta-raspberrypi" master branch(the other layers kirkstone which i use). i got all branch for this test, not only "/meta-raspberrypi/recipes-kernel/linux" like others. | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | I get lower CPS than "meta-raspberrypi" dunfell in the 4 tests I did above. I see slowness in the CPS (cycle per second) calculation that i have made in my code. The fastest is "meta-raspberrypi" dunfell. | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | Also, i tried with latest RaspberrypiOS(September 22nd 2022-32bit, 5.15 kernel). It runs almost same with "meta-raspberrypi" dunfell. | 07:32 |
| Guest79 | Lastly, i will pull the master branch of all the meta-layers im using and try it that way. | 07:32 |
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| mcfrisk | Guest79: you may want to check what changed in machine configuration, e.g. CPU optimizations for you HW. If there is no change, then the root cause is elsewhere, like in compiler config (default flags) or other major SW versions like kernel. You can see all machine config settings in "bitbake -e image" output. | 08:04 |
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| Guest79 | mcfrisk thank you. i will check when im available. | 08:21 |
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| * alessioigor waves all | 08:24 | |
| mckoan | good morning | 08:25 |
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| alessioigor | At https://www.linux.com/audience/maintainer-confidential-opportunities-and-challenges-of-the-ubiquitous-but-under-resourced-yocto-project/ is said: "If you already use the Yocto Project, say so publicly, or let us list you as a user!". We do! Where should I add ourself as user? Thanks! | 08:26 |
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| Guest79 | morning | 08:28 |
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| mcfrisk | alessioigor: https://wiki.yoctoproject.org/wiki/Project_Users | 08:39 |
| mcfrisk | alessioigor: then would be nice to get more companies to be https://www.yoctoproject.org/ecosystem/members/ | 08:40 |
| StephCC | Bonjour Gilles, | 08:43 |
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| jclsn | Where to get #include <systemd/sd-bus.h> form? | 09:54 |
| jclsn | There is no package called sd-bus or sdbus | 09:54 |
| jclsn | Tried libsystemd | 09:54 |
| landgraf | jclsn: systemd-dev ? | 09:55 |
| Saur[m] | jclsn: `systemd/sd-bus.h` is provided by the `systemd` recipe. | 09:56 |
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| jclsn | Saur[m]: Weird, I get a "No such file or directory" for it when building | 09:57 |
| jclsn | systemd is definitely installed | 09:57 |
| Saur[m] | jclsn: And your recipe `DEPENDS` on `systemd`? | 10:01 |
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| jclsn | Saur[m]: Ah no, it didn't. I tried RDEPENDS, but that was wrong obviously | 10:04 |
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| jclsn | Worked now | 10:04 |
| jclsn | Thx | 10:04 |
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| JaMa | khem: that ICE on opencv looks the same as fixed https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=108463 interestingly removing -fsched2-use-superblocks sometimes caused g++ to hang when building some other files, will check newer gcc-13 with this fix | 10:13 |
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| kayterina[m] | When does bitbake report: meta-python2 = "<unknown>:<unknown>" ? | 10:25 |
| kayterina[m] | On my local build I get a HEAD:8db... | 10:25 |
| mardor | Hi all, I would like to setup a new machine with mesa and Nvidia 525 driver. From my understanding this would require me to build mesa with the glvnd config option enabled, which in return depends on libglvnd. So I guess I will have to bake my one recipe for libglvnd, since it is currently no provides by any layer, am I correct? | 10:28 |
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| mihai | kayterina[m]: maybe because it's not an actual git clone, and you have meta-python from a tarball without the .git dir | 10:32 |
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| kayterina[m] | aha. Can this be set from environment variables? To tell bitbake to fetch a tar instead of having the .git dir or it can happen when it fails to fetch? | 10:38 |
| landgraf | mihai: or meta-python is just part of meta-oe git repo | 10:38 |
| kayterina[m] | landgraf: I have the same dir structure locally and my meta-python reports a HEAD. | 10:39 |
| mihai | landgraf: but that should pick up meta-oe's git revision | 10:39 |
| landgraf | mihai: meta-python | 10:39 |
| landgraf | it's empty | 10:39 |
| landgraf | in my case | 10:39 |
| landgraf | copied from the running build | 10:40 |
| landgraf | well. it doesn't look good actually because only meta-networking's revision is displayed properly while meta-oe/meta-python and meta-multimedia are empty. | 10:41 |
| landgraf | not sure if it's bug or feature | 10:41 |
| mihai | landgraf: like just "meta-python" the whole line, empty ? | 10:41 |
| landgraf | looks like it shows last element from the group. meta is also emtpy | 10:41 |
| JaMa | landgraf: she sayd meta-python2 which is in separate repository not meta-python from meta-oe repo | 10:43 |
| mihai | they are grouped, and you have a couple of layers listed, with only the last layer in the group will print the revision | 10:43 |
| JaMa | kayterina[m]: are you in the middle of rebase or something? | 10:43 |
| JaMa | kayterina[m]: and you shouldn't be using meta-python2 :) | 10:43 |
| landgraf | JaMa: oh. missed python2 part :( | 10:44 |
| JaMa | there is a reason why I haven't marked it as mickedore compatible | 10:44 |
| kayterina[m] | I am in the privileged task to debug a failing pipeline with only bitbake's output to guess. | 10:44 |
| kayterina[m] | It is not up to me too migrate the project to python3, although someone put a variable in local.conf to remind us to do so. | 10:45 |
| kayterina[m] | *to decide to migrate | 10:45 |
| JaMa | you mean I_SWEAR_TO_MIGRATE_TO_PYTHON3 ? you're welcome | 10:46 |
| kayterina[m] | It was you? Thank you. | 10:46 |
| mihai | :)) | 10:46 |
| JaMa | https://git.openembedded.org/meta-python2/commit/?id=10c65fc18998d302f34634ffceaf31ab335056dd and that's also 2 years ago.. some stuff just don't want to die.. | 10:47 |
| JaMa | even google got their stuff together in chromium build since then | 10:47 |
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| JaMa | khem: backporting the fix resolves the ICE but seems to cause the same hang as -fsched2-use-superblocks removal, need to test it a bit more, will try whole newer snapshot as well (instead of just backporting this change in https://git.openembedded.org/openembedded-core-contrib/commit/?h=jansa/master&id=1a5478c62e9aeee33a40eefd98bd7898a5e4b259) | 11:08 |
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| dl9pf | anyone got the visionfive2 working ? | 11:53 |
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| aak | /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER aak oNNbpkkhd51THjtx | 12:13 |
| aak | sorry :D | 12:13 |
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| qschulz | aak: i would change your password ASAP if I were you :) | 12:15 |
| aak | thanks :D | 12:16 |
| * sudip just saw /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER aak ************* | 12:16 | |
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| agherzan | Guest79 What kernel version have you tested on RaspberryPi OS? | 12:24 |
| agherzan | I suspect that if you have no luck with kernel updates/downgrade and Raspberrypi OS behaves as expected on the kernel version we have in kirkstone, the problem is in userspace somewhere | 12:26 |
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| aak-rookie | agherzan 5.15.x (Release date September 22nd 2022-32bit). I dont remember the "x" exactly, i will have to check it out and make sure. | 12:37 |
| agherzan | OK. | 12:37 |
| agherzan | So I think it's the userspace. | 12:37 |
| agherzan | What you could try to be super sure is the following: | 12:38 |
| agherzan | 1. inject in a PiOS image the kernel and kernel modules from a kirkstone image and see how it behaves | 12:38 |
| agherzan | 2. if that works, we know that we have too look somewhere else | 12:38 |
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| aak-rookie | agherzan As you can see from my name, i'm new to both yocto and the software world. Do you have a chance to summarize with 1-2 sentences about how to do the first step you said? If not, i will search and find it myself, but it may take some time. | 12:42 |
| agherzan | kernel modules is a directory in the rootfs | 12:43 |
| agherzan | the kernel image is in the boot partition | 12:43 |
| aak-rookie | agherzan thanks | 12:44 |
| agherzan | Sure | 12:44 |
| agherzan | Just take the two images and | 12:44 |
| agherzan | Also device trees | 12:44 |
| agherzan | In the boot partition | 12:44 |
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| JaMa | aak-rookie: what are the CPS numbers for the 4 combinations you've mentioned? | 12:51 |
| JaMa | aak-rookie: last time it sounded that dunfell with new kernel was also slow similarly to kirkstone | 12:52 |
| JaMa | aak-rookie: "The fastest is "meta-raspberrypi" dunfell" < I guess you meant with 5.4 kernel in this case? | 12:52 |
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| aak-rookie | JaMa yes, 5.4 | 12:57 |
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| aak-rookie | JaMa i usually get between 15-18 in the 4 combinations i made. | 13:00 |
| aak-rookie | JaMa getting 20-23 with dunfell | 13:00 |
| aak-rookie | JaMa also i tested with sysbench tool and created a main.cpp and resized 1640x1232 and 640x480 cv::Mat to 300x300 5000 times in it and calculated the elapsed time. | 13:01 |
| JaMa | so 20-23 with dunfell and 5.4 and 15-18 with dunfell and 5.15, right? so it looks like kernel related | 13:01 |
| aak-rookie | JaMa Can we say for sure whether it is related to the kernel or not? Because when i did my tests on the latest image of raspberrypiOS(kernel version 5.15.x).it was almost the same as dunfell. | 13:04 |
| aak-rookie | JaMa yes, it is what i get. | 13:05 |
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| JaMa | aak-rookie: if it gets slow with 5.15 backported to dunfell, then it's kernel related (as everything else including toolchain is the same), the kernel in raspberrypiOS might be configured differently, so I would check defconfigs in both | 13:06 |
| nucatus_ | what could be the culprit of an "my_recipe.postinst returned 1, marking as unpacked only, configuration required on target"Z | 13:07 |
| jclsn | Saur[m]: So I have added systemd to DEPENDS of the recipe now and the compiler doesn't complain about the missing header anymore. But if I want to use the functions inside that header they can't be found. Any idea why this could be as well? | 13:07 |
| JaMa | aak-rookie: but only you can say it for sure after double checking the performance :) | 13:07 |
| jclsn | When it manually inside the project folder it works | 13:08 |
| jclsn | s/it/build it/ | 13:08 |
| nucatus_ | the recipe doesn't have a pkg_postinst() function | 13:08 |
| nucatus_ | and the logs doesn't say much about what the cause might be | 13:09 |
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| agherzan | Wait, I don't think I got that right | 13:23 |
| aak-rookie | agherzan I haven't even started yet :) | 13:23 |
| agherzan | aak-rookie are you saying that on dunfell, with kernel upgrade (only) to the kirkstone version you get the same perf degradation as with kirkstone? | 13:23 |
| agherzan | CPS(dunfell + kirkstone kernel) == CPS(kirkstone) ? | 13:24 |
| jclsn | Saur[m]: Nevermind, forgot to add systemd it in the CMakeLists.txt | 13:25 |
| aak-rookie | agherzan It was even lower as i remember. CPS(kirkstone) > CPS(dunfell + kirkstone kernel) | 13:26 |
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| aak-rookie | agherzan I can test it quickly in a short time if it is going to be a definite result. | 13:27 |
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| agherzan | As Jama said, this will narrow it at the kernel level | 13:28 |
| agherzan | If the performance is very similar in these two cases, I agree with him, kernel config might be what you want to look into | 13:28 |
| JaMa | aak-rookie: "im getting error while compiling because of the libraries im using in project so i cant test it." < what else are you using for the test? I though it was just some test program using opencv and opencv builds with for aarch64 | 13:34 |
| andrewzaza[m] | hi all, how can i copy (mount) the content of the wic image , I'm usingwic cp source dist inside of wic test ? I keep on getting raise argparse.ArgumentTypeError. | 13:41 |
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| andrewzaza[m] | andrewzaza[m]: ```... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/b6bfecbee7e5e7f734ecceed4d6ae4c2a2a7a866>) | 13:43 |
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| andrewzaza[m] | > <@andrew_brd:matrix.org> ```... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/3365bc59575cdae2b22a0b7beb7a305be2811db9>) | 13:44 |
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| aak-rookie | JaMa im dumb, i tried to get full build with another project which is using tensorflow-lite,boost etc.i will do it when im available. right now, testing "meta-raspberrypi dunfell + kirkstone kernel" to make sure CPS values. | 13:49 |
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| JaMa | sakoman: have you seen the e-mail about qemu build breakage in kirskstone and on it's way to dunfell as well? I know it's security fix, but small extra delay might be better than breaking the build (with spice which isn't enabled by default, but still.. it's not openssl where the implications might be more serious) | 13:53 |
| JaMa | I don't mind much as I've just disabled spice again (as we usually use VirtualBox again instead of qemu+virgl) | 13:53 |
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| sakoman | JaMa: Yes, I have. If the patch authors don't respond with follow on fixes soon I'll revert the CVE fix until we get a patch without regressions | 13:54 |
| sakoman | We discussed this during yesterday's bug triage meeting | 13:55 |
| andrewzaza[m] | <andrewzaza[m]> "> <@andrew_brd:matrix.org> ```..." <- it takes 2.5 h to run a simple wic test using oe , so that's why I'm asking for help to figure out the ``` wic cp``` command | 13:56 |
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| nucatus_ | any idea why inheriting systemd on a recipe leads to this error: ERROR: octopus-image-1.0-r0 do_rootfs: Postinstall scriptlets of ['seal'] have failed. If the intention is to defer them to first boot? | 14:02 |
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| nucatus_ | the recipe is rather inoffensive and even with the basic systemd unit service, the do_rootfs fails with this error | 14:03 |
| nucatus_ | if I remove the "inherit systemd" directive on the recipe, the build succeeds | 14:04 |
| nucatus_ | thin didn't use to be a problem on dunfell, but now its almost one day spent on figuring this out | 14:05 |
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| andrewzaza[m] | ```The third form of the command copies file or directory from the specified directory | 14:08 |
| andrewzaza[m] | on the partition to local: | 14:08 |
| andrewzaza[m] | $ wic cp tmp/deploy/images/qemux86-64/core-image-minimal-qemux86-64.wic:1/vmlinuz test``` looking at the man page of wic , why do we have wic:1 ? we have :1 in the end ... why ? | 14:08 |
| andrewzaza[m] | s/third//, s/form of the command copies file or directory from the specified directory// | 14:09 |
| andrewzaza[m] | s/```/````/, s/third//, s/form of the command copies file or directory from the specified directory// | 14:09 |
| andrewzaza[m] | * ```The | 14:09 |
| andrewzaza[m] | on the partition to local: | 14:09 |
| andrewzaza[m] | $ wic cp tmp/deploy/images/qemux86-64/core-image-minimal-qemux86-64.wic:1/vmlinuz test``` ,looking at the man page of wic , why do we have wic:1 ? we have :1 in the end ... why ? | 14:09 |
| andrewzaza[m] | s/third//, s/form of the command copies file or directory from the specified directory// | 14:10 |
| andrewzaza[m] | > <@andrew_brd:matrix.org> ```The | 14:10 |
| andrewzaza[m] | > on the partition to local: | 14:10 |
| andrewzaza[m] | > $ wic cp tmp/deploy/images/qemux86-64/core-image-minimal-qemux86-64.wic:1/vmlinuz test``` | 14:10 |
| andrewzaza[m] | from the documentation you see in the end of the path , there's :1 , and without it the cp command fails.... why ? | 14:10 |
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| JaMa | sakoman: thanks | 14:14 |
| nucatus_ | anyone with an idea about how to investigate the "Postinstall scriptlets of ['seal'] have failed"? | 14:18 |
| nucatus_ | there is no pkg_postinst() in that recipe ... | 14:18 |
| nucatus_ | and if I remove the "inherit systemd" directive, the build succeeds ... | 14:20 |
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| jclsn | Does the sstate-cache monitor the DEPLOY_DIR_IMAGE directory? So if I delete images there manually, should they be rebuilt? | 14:28 |
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| nucatus_ | jclsn: why not using bitbake -c cleanall your-image-recipe? | 14:29 |
| jclsn | nucatus_: I do usually. I was just trying something out and realized that bitbake did not rebuild the images after I deleted them by hand | 14:30 |
| jclsn | I have .service file which I have edited, but the edited version is not landing in the image | 14:31 |
| jclsn | I already cleaned the recipe itself and the image without success | 14:31 |
| jclsn | Ah it is a devtool issue | 14:34 |
| jclsn | It uses the service file from the workspace | 14:34 |
| jclsn | Nevermind | 14:34 |
| nucatus_ | ok | 14:35 |
| jclsn | But the behavior of the sstate-cache is correct in that case of the first question? | 14:36 |
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| RP | jclsn: it will clean it up if you -c clean the recipe but it won't rebuild it if you delete it | 14:40 |
| RP | jclsn: sstate handle cleanup, it doesn't handle "check if something was removed" | 14:41 |
| jclsn | RP: Alright, then it is correct | 14:41 |
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| Saur[m] | nucatus_: The `systemd` bbclass adds a `pkg_postinst` function for packages with `SYSTEMD_SERVICE` configured. | 14:52 |
| nucatus_ | Saur[m]: and how can I debug that function to see what its problem is?! | 15:06 |
| nucatus_ | at least to see some logs | 15:07 |
| Saur[m] | nucatus_: If you are using RPM for the packaging, then you should be able to see what scripts are in the produced RPM using `rpm -qp --scripts tmp/deploy/rpm/<arch>/<recipe>-<version>.<arch>.rpm`, e.g., `rpm -qp --scripts tmp/deploy/rpm/*/seal-*.rpm`. | 15:14 |
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| nucatus_ | I guess it is IPK the package manager | 15:18 |
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| aggurio | Hi, confused about the `x86-64` machine override in Poky. It seems to be used extensively in recipes, but there no machine configuration or include defines a MACHINEOVERRIDES for x86-64. I am missing it? | 15:27 |
| RP | aggurio: OVERRIDES includes TARGET_ARCH iirc | 15:28 |
| aggurio | Indeed, `OVERRIDES` does, however my `append:x86-64` are ignored unless my machine defines `MACHINEOVERRIDES =. "x86-64:${MACHINE}". Anyway, something strange is going on, thanks. | 15:32 |
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| JaMa | aggurio: MACHINEOVERRIDES is part of OVERRIDES and used only in some specific cases, but :append should work as long as it's in OVERRIDES | 15:41 |
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| JaMa | what does bitbake-getvar show about it? | 15:41 |
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| RP | JaMa: I took that getVar patch but it didn't apply to report_error.bbclass btw. I decided to ignore that file since it looked ok, not sure what happened | 15:43 |
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| JaMa | RP: sorry about that report_error.bbclass part, I have some local changes to upload reports automatically and I didn't realize they were on the same branch when I was generating it | 15:46 |
| JaMa | so the chunk which left after the rebase needed to be squashed to that old commit | 15:46 |
| RP | JaMa: np, I figured it might be something like that | 15:49 |
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| tepperson | im building a ccmake package and it seems to be finding the wrong zlib. I see this in my configure log Found ZLIB: /home/thomas/yocto/build_xwayland/tmp/work/armv8a-fslc-linux/pytorch/1.13-r0/recipe-sysroot-native/usr/lib/libz.so (found version "1.2.11"). I think it should be pulling zlib from recipe-sysroot/usrlib/libz.so instead (which does exist) | 15:56 |
| aggurio | bitbake-getvar prints: | 15:57 |
| aggurio | ``` | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # override[hostapp-update-hooks]:set /home/alexgg/balena-generic/build/../layers/meta-balena/meta-balena-common/recipes-support/hostapp-update-hooks/hostapp-update-hooks.bb:54 | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # " balena dropbear openssh-keygen util-linux " | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # override[hostapp-update-hooks]::append[x86-64] /home/alexgg/balena-generic/build/../layers/meta-balena/meta-balena-common/recipes-support/hostapp-update-hooks/hostapp-update-hooks.bb:59 | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # " efivar efitools-utils " | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # override[hostapp-update-hooks]:rename from RDEPENDS:${PN} data.py:104 [expandKeys] | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # " balena dropbear openssh-keygen util-linux " | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # override[hostapp-update-hooks-dev]:set /home/alexgg/balena-generic/build/../layers/poky/meta/conf/bitbake.conf:352 | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # "${PN} (= ${EXTENDPKGV})" | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # override[hostapp-update-hooks-dev]:rename from RDEPENDS:${PN}-dev data.py:104 [expandKeys] | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # "${PN} (= ${EXTENDPKGV})" | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # override[hostapp-update-hooks-staticdev]:set /home/alexgg/balena-generic/build/../layers/poky/meta/conf/bitbake.conf:356 | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # "${PN}-dev (= ${EXTENDPKGV})" | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # override[hostapp-update-hooks-staticdev]:rename from RDEPENDS:${PN}-staticdev data.py:104 [expandKeys] | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # "${PN}-dev (= ${EXTENDPKGV})" | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # pre-expansion value: | 15:57 |
| aggurio | # "None" | 15:57 |
| aggurio | I think I just saw the problem - the `OVERRIDES` for that recipe is `allarch` | 16:00 |
| aggurio | sorry for the noise | 16:00 |
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| tepperson | how do i remove a package from being installed in do_prepare_recipe_sysroot? | 16:13 |
| qschulz | tepperson: don't have it in DEPENDS | 16:14 |
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| JaMa | tepperson: but if it's about zlib, then instead of blocking zlib-native in RSS you should fix the pytorch logic to search in right sysroot (I know it might be PIA) | 16:33 |
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| khem | BrianL: ok so perhaps I did not understand clearly that you wanted the devel libs and headers for native version of the recipe in SDK. if you want this package as part of sdk host side then please add nativesdk-<recipe> to sdk via something like TOOLCHAIN_HOST_TASK:append = " nativesdk-<recipe>" in local.conf | 16:55 |
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| khem | JaMa: thanks for trying it out, I usually update once a week when gcc snapshot also gets published. Although if some other change triggers toolchain rebuild then I include it earlier too, to save some build time 🙂 | 16:58 |
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| JaMa | khem: I'm trying it now on different container with qemuarm64 to see if I can reproduce the hang | 17:06 |
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| JaMa | khem: and while doing that I've noticed that python3-numpy also seems to fail http://errors.yoctoproject.org/Errors/Details/688919/ but it might be only with DEBUG_BUILD (which I happened to still have in local.conf) and might not be only with gcc-13 (but I did DEBUG_BUILD build recently and it was fine) | 17:08 |
| JaMa | definitely no rush to fix this one :) | 17:08 |
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| JaMa | in the end I have 90+ commits for our internal components, some of the code from mtk, realtek, qualcomm wanted me to throw up and our own code sometimes wasn't much better :) | 17:10 |
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| khem | JaMa: this looks more like -Og problem | 18:44 |
| khem | btw, I have pushed a newer snapshot to the branch | 18:44 |
| khem | but it finds more problems so now harfbuzz is broken | 18:44 |
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| tepperson | i have a recipe that uses a git repository with submodules. I need to apply a patch to one of the submodules. how should I go about doing this? | 22:25 |
| tepperson | well i hand modified the patch that git generated for me from the submodule and that seems to have worked | 22:32 |
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| mischief | for some reason today on dunfell i keep running into ModuleNotFoundError: No module named '_sysconfigdata' for target python recipes like python3-six. any ideas how to fix it? | 22:55 |
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| RP | mischief: that sounds familiar for dunfell but I don't remember what the issue was. The mailing lists or bugzilla may know | 23:11 |
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