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| mckoan | good morning | 06:23 |
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| mborges50 | Hey everyone, I'm trying to get a Rust bin to compile using cargo-bitbake to generat the recipe on kirkstone. The problem is that one dependency is a git repo, and even tho that the repo is properly pulled where I want, cargo is trying to fetch from it anyway, and tells me that it "Couldn't connect to server" (I guess internet connection is | 08:37 |
| mborges50 | disabled during build to avoid messing with the cache somehow). Anyone has a clue? | 08:37 |
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| ayaka_ | Saur[m], thank you | 09:48 |
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| mort | I'm using rauc. What would be the best way to get a rauc manifest in the wic file? | 11:37 |
| mort | it feels like it should be possible to make the image recipe depend on the rauc bundle recipe, since the rauc bundle only depends on the rootfs and not the image | 11:38 |
| Crofton | shoragan: ^^^ | 11:54 |
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| ejoerns[m] | <mort> "it feels like it should be..." <- we continue discussing the use case for this in #rauc i guess ;) | 12:01 |
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| mort | yeah :) Both channels seemed relevant so I asked in both | 12:01 |
| jonmason | OEDVM starting | 12:05 |
| jonmason | please join! | 12:05 |
| jonmason | https://www.openembedded.org/wiki/OEDVM_2022_05 | 12:06 |
| behanw | https://docs.google.com/document/d/12rtiKrLgtZl617I5aew0g-N3ZoIyJts3r-FKP2AGRgQ/edit?usp=sharing | 12:06 |
| behanw | Minutes ^^^ | 12:07 |
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| armpit | define involvement | 12:12 |
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| Crofton | armpit: good question, we are interested in ideas | 12:17 |
| fray | is there a channel just for the oedvm Or are we usng #oe? | 12:24 |
| jonmason | Minutes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12rtiKrLgtZl617I5aew0g-N3ZoIyJts3r-FKP2AGRgQ/edit?usp=sharing | 12:25 |
| Crofton | just use #oe | 12:25 |
| sgw | Morning all | 12:25 |
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| zwelch | i have not flown on a plane since 2003, so I am extremely grateful that conferences have gone fully virtual. | 12:29 |
| mru | what's the point of a conference if you don't get to go to new places and hang out with friends after hours? | 12:30 |
| zwelch | to learn new things, to make new connections, to expand your (virtual) horizons? | 12:31 |
| mru | all best done at a bar | 12:31 |
| zwelch | i admittedly do miss the beer though | 12:31 |
| mru | or between sessions | 12:31 |
| zwelch | i know what i'm missing... no need to rub it in ;) | 12:32 |
| mru | I guess I misunderstood you | 12:32 |
| zwelch | but remote participation in a virtual conference is definitely second class citizenship, so i love the new status quo | 12:32 |
| mru | you did say you were "grateful" | 12:32 |
| zwelch | grateful to be on a level playing field again | 12:33 |
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| mru | if something prevents you attending in person, I see your point | 12:34 |
| Crofton | mru: Austin? Dublin? | 12:38 |
| mru | Crofton: ?? | 12:38 |
| Crofton | will you be at either? | 12:38 |
| mru | there are conferences again? | 12:38 |
| Crofton | I can see, no one told you | 12:39 |
| Crofton | petelinuz is shipped as a tarball! COnultants profit center | 12:39 |
| mru | travel to the US looks like it's still a bit of a hassle | 12:42 |
| Crofton | isn't it always? | 12:44 |
| Crofton | So Dublin then | 12:44 |
| mru | oh nice, british airways now fly to dublin from southampton | 12:44 |
| Crofton | Steal the Viictory | 12:44 |
| jonmason | rburton: did you want to talk about more modern python? It's on the "next time" list for oedvm, but I think we'll have time at the end of it | 12:46 |
| mru | Crofton: travel to the US has become more of a hassle with covid | 12:47 |
| jpuhlman | Dunfell extended sdk does not cotain everything. It contains the crtical stuff. | 12:47 |
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| jonmason | fray: are you saying everything with do_* needs a copyright? | 13:10 |
| Crofton | does anyone want to lead layer.con talk? | 13:14 |
| Crofton | this is why we don't record this :) | 13:15 |
| jonmason | yes, not recording is intentional | 13:32 |
| jonmason | people want recordings, but then the discussion is less | 13:33 |
| Guest58 | jonmason: in the end if a do_* statement contains code it does kinda require a copyright statement - legal departments are sometimes ultra picky on such things | 13:33 |
| Guest58 | not defining what "code" is ofc :) | 13:34 |
| jonmason | Guest58: just thinking of a scripting way of looking at things. we could parse for do_* and then have a human look to see what it should be (or just add the blanket statement) | 13:35 |
| Guest58 | jonmason: IMO just insist on these copyright headers - that way gets you through a legal audit most easily ;-) | 13:40 |
| Guest58 | That's why I kind of want to have them in every file even with the most basic "Openembedded contributors" statement as RP suggested. | 13:40 |
| Guest58 | This way I wouldn't have to worry about oe-core in an audit | 13:40 |
| jonmason | I am concerned that the copyright will be incorrect. Many/most US corporations require the copyright be assigned to them. Just putting something in there that might be incorrect is problematic. I'm not a lawyer, so I might be very wrong | 13:42 |
| jonmason | I thought there was a SPDX thing for copyrights, not just licenses. But it's early and I'm probably confused | 13:43 |
| Guest58 | Well guess for the class/python code that isn't that problematic, so I personally would want to start with that (just adding RP's proposal) | 13:47 |
| Guest58 | For the patches I guess a more granular approach might be needed (while IMO submitted, Denied, Inappropriate and Pending state will still keep the original author's CR, with the other upstream statues it might depend on the actual project). | 13:47 |
| Guest58 | TBH I would want to collect the low hanging fruit here and simply leave out the patches, till there's a project wide agreement how to handle them | 13:47 |
| Crofton | regarding recordings ... wait util people complain about BSP's :) | 13:48 |
| Guest58 | regarding patchtest grievance: wouldn't that be a perfect opportunity for a sponsored internship to get that back in action? just a thought. | 13:51 |
| Guest58 | I'm trying hard to recruit ppl to pick up the pieces here, so far without much luck | 13:51 |
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| behanw | fray: I love that idea. Thanks! | 13:56 |
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| tlwoerner | slides for kernel RFC: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1EC6W_MH6OJ3uMxH2uWA1OWsxYlEVZAoT3z91g6SULqk/edit?usp=sharing | 13:59 |
| Crofton | tlwoerner: you should make sure the link on the wiki won't let you edit the slides | 14:04 |
| tlwoerner | Crofton: i believe that's the case | 14:05 |
| Crofton | just checking | 14:05 |
| tlwoerner | "view only" (i think) | 14:05 |
| Crofton | ok start talking about kernel config | 14:05 |
| Crofton | or I will talk about Scottish ATM's being Laser printers | 14:06 |
| tlwoerner | or... a host could start hitting the mute buttons ;-) | 14:06 |
| Crofton | lol | 14:06 |
| Crofton | just talk | 14:06 |
| Crofton | we are simulating a real meeting :) | 14:06 |
| Crofton | lol | 14:07 |
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| moto-timo | do we shift the start of the next topic a few minutes to allow some discussion? this has been a monologue | 14:27 |
| fray | to me the three are distinctly separate "but related". DISTRO covers userspace, MACHINE covers kernel (and modules), and IMAGE covers assembly.. | 14:28 |
| rburton | i do think that there should be a way to trivially map distro/machine features to kernel-config fragments | 14:29 |
| rburton | so if i turn off the wifi machine feature, the kernel doesn't build any wifi stuff | 14:30 |
| moto-timo | fray: dm-crypt crosses those boundaries | 14:34 |
| moto-timo | suddenly I need a different initramfs, different k frag, and other things (like /etc/crypttab populated) | 14:34 |
| fray | I agree there are things that cross the boundries.. but I consider the initramfs to be 'controlled' by the machine (even though it has it's onw image features, but specified within the image recipe for that machine's specific config) | 14:38 |
| fray | to me though everything is driven from the 'DISTRO' side, then the image 'selects what to install', and the kernel provides capabilities.. | 14:39 |
| * moto-timo discovers don't lean back to far in the chair or you fall over (with the mic on no less) | 14:40 | |
| fray | lol | 14:41 |
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| jonmason | I'm trying to troll zeddii but he's being quiet | 14:47 |
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| moto-timo | he resists trolling like a champ | 14:48 |
| _troll_ | need some help? | 14:48 |
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| zwelch | tlwoerner: i do like your proposal and have done things like it in the past, so look forward to seeing what comes out of your work | 14:49 |
| Crofton | Trevor, look at the links I added to the minutes | 14:50 |
| Crofton | there are things sort of like what you talk about in oe-classic, but they are all over the palce | 14:51 |
| Crofton | SUBMODULES ROCK | 14:51 |
| Crofton | rburton: kernel config needs machine learning with inputs recipes as training? | 14:53 |
| Guest58 | submodules - are rather being between a rock and and hard place ;-) | 14:53 |
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| * zeddii chuckles | 14:58 | |
| Crofton | submodules let me interact with upstream easily and pin for end users | 14:58 |
| tlwoerner | zwelch: great! | 15:00 |
| Guest58 | *seconds Bruce's chukkles* | 15:01 |
| tlwoerner | thank you, everyone, for the feedback :-) | 15:03 |
| zeddii | tlwoerner: I didn't follow along, but caught the end. FWIW, there's over a decade of discussions and bugzillas and thoughts on that topic. | 15:05 |
| Crofton | pip install oe-mymachine :) | 15:05 |
| tlwoerner | zeddii: shoot, i was hoping you'd catch more of it. maybe check the slides? (if you get a chance) | 15:07 |
| zeddii | I scanned them, it's all things that I talked about when introducing the fragments, etc. | 15:07 |
| tlwoerner | zeddii: basically i wonder if kernel config shouldn't be something that is disbursed throughout the entire ecosystem | 15:07 |
| zeddii | I'm adamantly against sprinkeling specific options throughout layers and even worse recipes. | 15:07 |
| tlwoerner | zeddii: ooh. | 15:08 |
| Crofton | zeddii: did you see my links into oe-classic? | 15:08 |
| zeddii | Crofton: yup. absolutely terrible. | 15:08 |
| tlwoerner | but if someone chooses to add a package to their image that requires a certain kernel config... | 15:08 |
| Crofton | :) | 15:08 |
| fray | tlwoerner: still of the opinion it's up to the package to either fail gracefully -- and/or tell the user "I need this machine [or distro] feature" | 15:09 |
| zeddii | if you abstract it out, you've created some terrible parallel description of the options that then have to be mapped somewhere, somehow to options that vary by version, archicture and even kernel source tree. | 15:09 |
| Crofton | use machine learning, recipes as input kconfig as output | 15:09 |
| Crofton | can recipes list required kconfig options and we have a qa check to see if the are in actual config? | 15:10 |
| zeddii | that's why the classification information, and kern-feature.rc information is in the kernel-cache. | 15:10 |
| Crofton | I now this is a can of worms | 15:10 |
| zeddii | Crofton: you could, but you are once again into hell | 15:10 |
| zeddii | so you are now hardcoding the specific options into some location that can't be truly generic. | 15:11 |
| Crofton | I can several routes even from there :) | 15:11 |
| zeddii | that's why the kernel configuration audit that exists now has levels of warnings, and tried to tell you "you asked for this, but you didn't get it" | 15:11 |
| zeddii | s/tried/tries/ | 15:11 |
| Crofton | but this moves teh ask to recipes :) | 15:12 |
| zeddii | yah. I don't want any recipe digging into my final .config | 15:12 |
| tlwoerner | fray: you say you'd be surprised to learn anyone is running the in-kernel defconfig, and i agree that's very not ideal, but what else would they use | 15:15 |
| tlwoerner | fray: do they expect the BSP layer to create a defconfig for them? | 15:15 |
| tlwoerner | or should we not provide anything and let them configure their own kernels? | 15:15 |
| tlwoerner | certain things are needed by virtue of selecting a specific MACHINE | 15:15 |
| tlwoerner | but everything other than that is either the user's responsibility or.... the build systems (controversial) | 15:16 |
| * mru does not recall using the in-kernel defconfig, ever | 15:16 | |
| fray | I'm expecting anyone but new users to configure the kernel in some way.. either the .scc kernel features or by writing their own defconfig (make menuconfig style) | 15:16 |
| fray | new users often start with the in-kernel defconfig, and then quickly modify it | 15:17 |
| mru | the defconfig has far too much crap enabled | 15:17 |
| fray | ya, like I said.. it's some maintainers private config for what they test | 15:17 |
| mru | for embedded stuff, what I'd like is a _minimal_ config that enables whatever is essential for each soc | 15:18 |
| mru | I can add network protocols, filesystems, etc myself | 15:18 |
| moto-timo | having worked on several projects that had several full defconfigs in git... I hate defconfigs. "What is the difference between a 'host' and a 'guest' config?" "What do you mean?" | 15:18 |
| moto-timo | and the base config was for a distro... so it had every single driver you can think of turned on so the out of box desktop experience was "seamless". | 15:19 |
| moto-timo | (aka the desktop distro is not embedded linux problem) | 15:19 |
| mru | there ought to be a tool that analyses a devicetree and generates a config with everything it needs enabled | 15:21 |
| * zeddii points to: "Using linux-yocto + yocto kernel tools to create and maintain a BSP " in particular slide 8 | 15:21 | |
| fray | ya, default (large defconfig) is not an embedded thing.. embedded is minimal defconfig | 15:21 |
| Crofton | clearly we need to rewrite bitbake in rust | 15:24 |
| vmeson | https://github.com/Agilent/bytebraise | 15:24 |
| vmeson | This project is a proof-of-concept experiment to see how much of BitBake can be implemented in Rust. | 15:24 |
| Crofton | there needs to be a tool that analyzes everye fpga bitstrreeam that might be loaded and makes sure all the config options are on for all possible fpga images | 15:24 |
| * vmeson wishes he had a link to such a project ! ;-) | 15:31 | |
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| JPEW | Crofton: I think you need to make the survey, I can't or can't find how | 15:37 |
| Crofton | we will | 15:37 |
| zwelch | fwiw, i sent my "membership application" to the board address, per the instructions at the beginning of today's meeting. Would it be wrong to suggest an autoresponder for that address, to confirm delivery and provide an ETA for a response? :) | 15:42 |
| jonmason | it goes to all the board members | 15:43 |
| jonmason | its not uniquely for membership | 15:43 |
| jonmason | though it would be good to get one for that | 15:44 |
| zwelch | Given the fact that it goes a group, i assume that there is a process for deciding who will respond to each message, and such decisions will be made periodically, thus one might be able to predict the worst case response time and provide feedback to let senders know that there message hasn't gone to a black hole and how long to wait before following up. | 15:45 |
| jonmason | no, the entire membership has to vote on new people | 15:47 |
| jonmason | its painful | 15:47 |
| jonmason | but yes, we do need a more formal process that coincides with these OEDVMs, as opposed to we do it a couple of days after | 15:47 |
| zwelch | sure, but that's about the membership decision; my suggestion relates to reponsiveness in communication | 15:47 |
| jonmason | but I can confirm we got the email | 15:48 |
| jonmason | and we got one from marta as well | 15:48 |
| moto-timo | when patchwork/patchtest were working (~4 years ago)... not only did folks get "patch quality" responses "immediately"... patchwork also tracked "Tested by" "Reviewed by" | 15:48 |
| moto-timo | but we are still bringing that level of functionality back | 15:49 |
| moto-timo | multiple "response time" conversations going on... sorry I was out of context | 15:49 |
| jonmason | moto-timo: b4 is really good at responding to emails and automating stuff | 15:50 |
| jonmason | lei and b4 | 15:50 |
| jonmason | I need to write a script to add reviewed-by | 15:50 |
| JPEW | Video of my talk to SPDX: https://youtu.be/8X5PWa7A6pY | 15:51 |
| moto-timo | jonmason: step by step how to set it up would be a great blog... I just barely finally got mutt set up again. | 15:51 |
| jonmason | moto-timo: https://josefbacik.github.io/kernel/2021/10/18/lei-and-b4.html | 15:51 |
| moto-timo | and I still don't know how to get gmail to not send the "via OpenEmbedded lists" garbage | 15:51 |
| jonmason | and I'm here as a reference if you need help | 15:51 |
| moto-timo | jonmason: thank you. I'll read that today | 15:52 |
| jonmason | moto-timo: if you figure that out, let me know. it annoys me as well | 15:52 |
| * moto-timo needs a much faster workflow for patch review | 15:52 | |
| jonmason | lei for emails, b4 for pulling off lists | 15:52 |
| jonmason | and I have a cronjob that combines and throws it at CI | 15:53 |
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| moto-timo | Use lei to pull down emails and pathces you care about for all linux kernel mailinglists locally. | 15:53 |
| moto-timo | that's the key | 15:53 |
| jonmason | halstead did a great job about adding all of the YP/OE mailing lists to lore | 15:53 |
| moto-timo | I used to have a workflow around pwclient to grab "meta-python" patches from the old patchwork instance... never fully automated | 15:54 |
| moto-timo | yes, we are in a new universe | 15:54 |
| moto-timo | lessons learned: never fork anything | 15:54 |
| jonmason | what I'm doing is not perfect, or bugless, but happy to share with anyone interested | 15:54 |
| moto-timo | (the fork of a fork of patchwork was a mistake) | 15:54 |
| Crofton | dl9pf: will be ready in 20-30 minutes | 15:54 |
| tlwoerner | paul barker's talk on b4/lei? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHtcDqnO2zY | 15:55 |
| Crofton | JPEW: we need minutes and can you add you video to minutes | 15:55 |
| moto-timo | tlwoerner: yeah. I knew there was a talk. I need to not "do that later" so much. Context switching flushes the cache and I never "sharpen the axe". | 15:56 |
| JPEW | https://reuse.software/ | 15:57 |
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| jonmason | layerindex talk starts at 1615 | 16:00 |
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| jonmason | so there is a break after this talk | 16:00 |
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| armpit | enough of zoom | 16:04 |
| Crofton | anyon eknow how to do users space i2c in linux? | 16:04 |
| zwelch | Crofton: beyond i2c-tools? | 16:06 |
| Crofton | they assume you are the master? | 16:06 |
| zwelch | i think so? | 16:07 |
| zwelch | in the past, i used those tools to do limited automated testing of i2c busses and devices | 16:08 |
| Crofton | apparently linux is th eslave in this case receiving bytes frm another master | 16:09 |
| tlwoerner | Crofton: i recently did some SPI stuff in userspace by twiddling with the SPI controller registers directly (from user-space) | 16:10 |
| tlwoerner | this is the most traffic #oe has seen in months | 16:15 |
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| zwelch | i can't edit the wiki, but i would add "how can OE encourage vendors to provide better u-boot/kernel/bsp repos?" to the "list of grievances" | 16:18 |
| Crofton | sign up for an account and I can approve it | 16:19 |
| zwelch | i tried, and it said i can't | 16:19 |
| Crofton | hmm why not? | 16:19 |
| Crofton | dm the message | 16:19 |
| zwelch | let me go through it again | 16:19 |
| Crofton | thanks, I know someone added one last night | 16:19 |
| Crofton | and be warned, it comes up every meeting :) | 16:20 |
| Crofton | the pitch forks come out | 16:20 |
| zwelch | hmmm, ah, i think that i tried to create an account at the top-level oe.org, not the wiki | 16:20 |
| Crofton | yeah | 16:21 |
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| zwelch | Crofton: the new user form links to Terms of Service, and there's no content at the end of that link | 16:25 |
| Crofton | probably some auto default we never setup | 16:25 |
| Crofton | do you have the url, I suppose I can just create an account myself, one of these thing s you forget | 16:26 |
| zwelch | https://www.openembedded.org/wiki/Special:RequestAccount | 16:27 |
| Crofton | confirmed | 16:27 |
| zwelch | confirmed my account request, or that the ToS are empty? :) | 16:28 |
| Crofton | confirmed your account | 16:32 |
| zwelch | hmmm... haven't received an email confirmation, so i checked my email server logs and found messages from yoctoproject.org are being rejected | 16:35 |
| zwelch | the sender domain does not resolve | 16:35 |
| zwelch | ... from=<apache@ezri.nas-admin.org> ... | 16:36 |
| zwelch | look familiar? | 16:36 |
| zwelch | (and i suspect the bounces are not going back anywhere that would lead to this getting resolved) | 16:41 |
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| Crofton | yeah I need to talk to halstead offline | 17:02 |
| halstead | Crofton: I can probably fix that up fairly easily | 17:03 |
| jonmason | I got it, Oe needs an onlyfans account | 17:32 |
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| JaMa | +1 but first we need to get some new people :) | 17:43 |
| fray | (I've got to go, if people are still talking in an hour or so, I should be abck) | 17:43 |
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| JaMa | lets move to happy hours and drink (even) more | 17:50 |
| tlwoerner | openembedded: welcome to the jungle! | 17:53 |
| tlwoerner | if the airing of grievances is done then we're on to the feats of strength? | 17:54 |
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| RP | https://www.flickr.com/photos/32615155@N00/49989233902/in/album-72157714641599283/ - still have the OE tshirt :) | 17:55 |
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| JPEW | zwelch: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLciqFgcGu7TvR_f3aKZHkozX0WIs-N7vc | 18:08 |
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| zwelch | JPEW: i'm guessing that link was prompted by my interest in reproducible builds? :) | 18:17 |
| JPEW | zwelch: Yes, I've given several talks that touch on that | 18:17 |
| zwelch | i only started looking into it after the SolarWinds hack. Reading about that was like being hit by a lightning bold; it terrified me, because we are collectively almost entirely unprepared for that level of adversary. | 18:18 |
| zwelch | at that time, i ended up sending a patch upstream for diffoscope, as I started envisioning integrating that into OE/Yocto, to be able to use it to compare builds produced from independent hosts | 18:20 |
| JPEW | Hey, we do that! | 18:36 |
| zwelch | great minds think alike; of course, the merit of the ideas produced from said minds remains to be debated. I found diffoscope too slow to be useful, which is why I started working to merge an old branch that would add parallel processing. Didn't get far before my attention was preempted, but I (hopefully) still have that branch around here somewhere | 18:41 |
| JPEW | We limit the diffoscope size; also we pre-process with `cmp` in parallel so that we aren't running diffoscope on things that aren't different | 18:54 |
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| zwelch | JPEW: very good ideas, still diffoscope should be smarter/faster/better so such tricks could be avoided/retired | 18:59 |
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