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| mort | hey would you look at that, I'm compiling rust again too | 14:20 |
|---|---|---|
| JaMa | be glad that you're not _still_ compiling rust :) | 14:21 |
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| mort | well I am still compiling rust | 14:28 |
| mort | (to be fair I'm recompiling a whole lot of stuff though since I moved to different poky and meta-openembedded commits) | 14:29 |
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| rburton | mort: bblock | 14:51 |
| rburton | or get yourself an altra, that builds rust nice and fast <slaps new build machine on the top> | 14:51 |
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| mort | this machine used to be really nice actually | 15:14 |
| mort | 2x xeon silver 4114 | 15:15 |
| mort | it's just 7 years old 🙃 | 15:15 |
| rburton | definitely time to upgrade to a nice shiny altra | 15:16 |
| mort | ampere altra? | 15:17 |
| mort | aw still getting that error where .. poky fails to correctly parse the systemd users file and therefore generates a broken useradd command | 15:18 |
| mort | rburton: you're using arm for a build machine? I didn't know yocto supported that yet | 15:19 |
| rburton | it supported it for years | 15:21 |
| rburton | you can use ppc64 build host if you want | 15:21 |
| mort | huh | 15:21 |
| mort | I thought I had a bunch of issues when trying to use it with arm linux earlier | 15:21 |
| rburton | that must have been a long time ago | 15:22 |
| mort | for all I know I tried it with sumo .. | 15:22 |
| rburton | i've been at arm 4 years and have _only_ had an arm builder | 15:22 |
| rburton | (if i need to do a build on x86 hardware I ssh into my atom NAS) | 15:22 |
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| mort | rburton: are there any altra-based computers available outside of cloud services? (say, hypothetically, that I don't wanna make my own motherboard etc) | 16:12 |
| rburton | sure, loads | 16:12 |
| mort | ah gigabyte has some I see | 16:14 |
| rburton | eg https://store.avantek.co.uk | 16:14 |
| rburton | go big or go home: dual 64-core 3ghz altras in a rack, just $18k | 16:16 |
| mort | how I wish I was in the kind of company where I could just say, "hey this $18k thing will improve productivity significantly, buy it pls" | 16:17 |
| mort | however... | 16:21 |
| mort | $5.8k isn't a whole lot for an 80-core server | 16:21 |
| mort | I'd be concerned about the single threaded portion of builds though | 16:22 |
| mort | if what you're waiting for is mostly do_rootfs, having 79 idle cores won't help 😅 | 16:22 |
| rburton | our altra does sato from scratch in 31 minutes, rust takes a few minutes. the threadripper i tested was a few minutes faster in walltime (i'd imagine mostly via rust, but I do actually have buildstats so can compare). | 16:23 |
| rburton | rootfs is all I/O | 16:23 |
| mort | hm | 16:23 |
| mort | I don't think so? It seems to be mostly CPU, with qemu-aarch64 | 16:24 |
| mort | it's probably mostly IO when you don't have to emulate because your build machine is also arm <_< | 16:24 |
| rburton | then you're doing a _lot_ of stuff in postinsts and should fix that. old release? | 16:24 |
| mort | kirkstone | 16:24 |
| rburton | look at what its doing | 16:24 |
| rburton | core-image-sato rootfs on our builder takes 70s | 16:25 |
| rburton | obviously your image will be different but if you can say qemu is taking too long in rootfs then figure out why that is | 16:26 |
| rburton | intercepts can be used to batch changes, eg poky d42904ba0cf0eac28ef79b0e6015150d376d134d | 16:26 |
| rburton | hm that isn't in kirkstone. if you ship manpages, cherry-pick that (and any related commits around it) | 16:27 |
| rburton | also a neat optimisation would be to look at the host and target byte order/size and if they match not use qemu at all | 16:28 |
| mort | I guess running a do_rootfs with --verbose would give me some idea of what it's doing | 16:31 |
| rburton | one glorious day i want to integrate statsd into bitbake logging and get stats to produce flame charts of a build profile | 16:31 |
| mort | that day will indeed be glorious, that would be cool | 16:32 |
| mort | opkg is taking some time, htop says it's using a lot of CPU but I don't know if it counts IO as "CPU" there | 16:33 |
| mort | would make sense to spend a bunch of CPU time though if it's compressing and/or decompressing stuff | 16:34 |
| mort | (back when I was running arch the most annoying part of installing packages from the AUR was how I had to wait a long time for the package to be xz compressed and then wait for it to be decompressed right after) | 16:34 |
| mort | update_udev_hwdb is taking a while it seems | 16:35 |
| rburton | yeah that's qemu'd | 16:35 |
| mort | yeah | 16:35 |
| mort | there's a bunch of CPU time spent in python as well throughout the process, that hurts a bit tbh | 16:37 |
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| mort | granted that's not a ton | 16:43 |
| hrw | mort: https://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2014/02/14/aarch64-can-build-openembedded/ when it comes to using AArch64 to build OE | 16:48 |
| hrw | mort: if you are in USA then Newegg has nice Ampere offer. If in EU then check smicro.eu | 16:49 |
| hrw | mort: do not go to avantek. their prices are insane and they sell 'something in a box' | 16:50 |
| mort | How is the ARM server OS situation these days, did they get something UEFI-like widespread or is it still a hell of vendor BSPs and hardware specific images | 16:56 |
| hrw | mort: "we made servers boring" - all serious distros just boot UEFI and use ACPI stuff | 16:57 |
| mort | that's awesome | 16:57 |
| hrw | mort: like on x86-64. power on, boot from usb stick, install, reboot, use | 16:58 |
| mort | when're they gonna make SBCs boring | 16:58 |
| hrw | vendors resist | 16:58 |
| mort | :( | 16:58 |
| hrw | SystemReady IR spec is for SBC - standardize on U-Boot with EFI support + DeviceTree for hw description | 16:58 |
| hrw | but even that feels to hard for too many vendors | 16:59 |
| mort | they wouldn't want us to not have to use their terrible images with outdated legacy kernels and Tencent's repos would they | 16:59 |
| hrw | I just gave up on arm SBC and do not buy them | 16:59 |
| mort | does anything in the x86 world compete with the price/performance of an rk3588 | 17:00 |
| mort | price/performance/power consumption | 17:00 |
| hrw | my basic rule (for any architecture) is simple: needs to boot Debian (can be testing) or Fedora out of the box. From official installer. | 17:00 |
| hrw | mort: I would check thin terminals | 17:01 |
| hrw | for me they are main competitors to arm sbc | 17:01 |
| mort | I think the answer is that they compete on neither price, performance nor power consumption | 17:04 |
| hrw | they win by 'boot OS out of the box' compared to what I see about rk3588 on #fedora-arm or #debian-arm | 17:06 |
| hrw | ;D | 17:06 |
| mort | certainly | 17:06 |
| mort | *especially* if you want GPU drivers | 17:07 |
| mort | until at least until panthor is ready | 17:08 |
| mort | I was burned last week by those horrible xorg-legacy rockchip arm mali drivers, trying to change display mode just caused a bunch of driver errors in dmesg | 17:10 |
| mort | had to use an EDID faker thing to make it not know that 4k@30 was an option, at which point 1080p@60 worked... | 17:11 |
| mort | they're all kinds of broken in relation to sleep mode as well | 17:12 |
| rburton | hrw: i keep on almost buying an hp g3 sff as a server because they're so pretty but keep on remembering that i want space for three disks in it | 17:13 |
| rburton | they are about 100 quid refurb though, amazing value | 17:13 |
| hrw | rburton: ah, old systems... my nas uses supermicro motherboard with xeon 1241 :D | 17:14 |
| hrw | maybe one day someone will make microitx aarch64 board to make nas. for sure honeycomb is not one of them. | 17:15 |
| rburton | hrw: rock5-itx is coming this month | 17:16 |
| hrw | o! | 17:16 |
| rburton | its actually cheap! | 17:16 |
| hrw | rk3588. when it will work with mainline? | 17:16 |
| rburton | indeed | 17:17 |
| hrw | https://bret.dk/radxa-rock-5-itx-first-look/ reading now | 17:17 |
| hrw | 240 USD. sounds ok | 17:17 |
| mort | I don't understand the timelines for things getting into mainline | 17:17 |
| rburton | mort: patches have to be sent first! | 17:18 |
| mort | I keep seeing patches sent many years ago adding support for systems I use though | 17:18 |
| mort | but then they're not in mainline | 17:18 |
| rburton | mainlining kernel stuff isn't trivial, much easier to just put your platform on top of the android kernel (that you'll do anyway, if you're selling a SBC) and just call it done | 17:18 |
| mort | as an example, there are patches to add devicetrees for the FriendlyElec R6S/R6C (another 3588 SBC) but nothing seems to have happened to them | 17:19 |
| rburton | hrw: i might get one to encourage that sort of behaviour, my current nas is atom based so it will still be an improvement :) | 17:21 |
| mort | since the kernel doesn't and won't ever support every single hypothetical machine, it would be cool if there was a standard and relatively well supported and relatively stable way to provide external devicetree files | 17:21 |
| hrw | rburton: 2.5GbE would be lower than my plans for moving to 10GbE | 17:22 |
| rburton | hrw: https://browser.geekbench.com/user/rossburton <-- my nas vs my rock5b without any heatsink :) | 17:22 |
| mort | some way that's intended to not break all the time with new kernel releases and changes to kernel dtsi files etc | 17:22 |
| hrw | mort: ah. neverendingstory... | 17:22 |
| mort | It's really weird how the solution is always like, "you made a one-off custom board and find breaking changes annoying? Just submit it upstream" | 17:24 |
| mort | as if 1) that would prevent breakages and 2) it would ever get accepted and 3) I have the necessary spare months to get something merged | 17:25 |
| mort | I should stop ranting | 17:26 |
| hrw | wow. radxa forum mentions 5.10 kernel for it... | 17:26 |
| hrw | looks like I stay with x86-64 for longer | 17:27 |
| * hrw off | 17:27 | |
| mort | I think Rockchip recently published a 6.1 kernel actually | 17:28 |
| mort | but yeah using SBCs means being stuck with many year old probably very insecure buggy kernel versions | 17:29 |
| rburton | from what i read i'd be suspicious that its actually 6.1 | 17:30 |
| rburton | or even 5.10 tbh | 17:30 |
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| mort | speaking of older kernel versions, I've actually observed push-back against the idea of using newer-than-5.15 kernels, because Kirkstone's "officially supported" kernel version is 5.15 and kirkstone is the newest LTS | 17:33 |
| rburton | oh wow their 6.1 tree actually merges in 6.1.43 | 17:34 |
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| rburton | mort: well that argument makes itself void in a few days | 17:34 |
| mort | https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MV6mWvZiJEgpvFbD8czKcfaHVD3ZgMO9 this is FriendlyElec's official releases (yes they host their images on Google Drive), the 5.10 ones allegedly use Linux 5.10 and the 6.1 ones allegedly use Linux 6.1 | 17:35 |
| mort | rburton: well, it has a certain logic to it | 17:35 |
| mort | considering that Linux breaks stuff all the time | 17:35 |
| rburton | i was looking at the radxa kernel, the 5.10 branch is ACK but 6.1 is actually upstream derived | 17:36 |
| rburton | its not a _small_ delta 4523 files changed, 2708746 insertions(+), 27670 deletions(-) | 17:36 |
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| mort | is that upstream 6.1.43 -> rockchip 6.1.43? | 17:37 |
| rburton | yes | 17:37 |
| mort | I can't for the life of me understand why they think doing stuff like that is a good idea | 17:37 |
| mort | I was trying to get off of variscite's kernel and onto mainline a while back, and one of the random things we had to fix was .. they had a kernel patch to change the I2S address in the ov5645 camera driver, for no apparent reason | 17:39 |
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| JPEW | OE Happy Hour is now: https://zoom.us/j/99151508871 | 21:01 |
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