| Smigers | it is fedora x86-64 | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Smigers | fedora 19 with the latest updates as of 13.12.2013 | 00:00 |
| bluelightning | yes, I understand that | 00:02 |
| Smigers | For example, I want to build an app that runs on an ARM ARMv8-A (or something) | 00:02 |
| Smigers | Assuming Yocto supports that , I should simply specify that in some config, and start the build | 00:03 |
| Smigers | I have clearyl tried that already with a target of x86, x86-64, some weird variant called qemux86, and another one called qemux86-64 | 00:04 |
| Smigers | None of the builds | 00:04 |
| Smigers | they all fail at the same place | 00:04 |
| Smigers | none of them builds | 00:05 |
| Smigers | The manner in which they fail indicates that the build system is looking in *poison* directories. In other words, Since I am running x86-64 Fedora, and the bulld system is targetting qemux86, then it shoudl never look in my system for a link library. It should only ever look in its idea of sysroot | 00:07 |
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| Smigers | Why would Yocto ever look outside of its own target sysroot environment for a library. That's simply wrong | 00:09 |
| Smigers | This is such a fundamental problem that I can't imagine what Yocto is doing | 00:10 |
| Smigers | other than something wrong | 00:10 |
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| bluelightning | it can't start building for the target until it's build some native tools | 00:18 |
| bluelightning | that is why it is looking at your host system and that is why it fails in the same place no matter what the target is | 00:19 |
| Smigers | Native tools ? | 00:20 |
| Smigers | You meam something other than the toolchain ? | 00:21 |
| Smigers | Toolchiain being gcc, ld, nm, etc... | 00:21 |
| Smigers | if it needs it, it should download it and buld it | 00:21 |
| Smigers | or specify it as a prerequisite | 00:22 |
| Smigers | neither is happening | 00:22 |
| Smigers | Since neither sis happening, Yocto is broken | 00:23 |
| sgw_ | Smigers: I am curious, do you have multilib binaries or libraries installed on your host machine? I have not read back, but it seems like that. | 00:39 |
| Smigers | SGW I am am sorry, but I don't understand your question | 00:44 |
| Smigers | Please provide some kind of shell command which would allow me to answer your question sensibly | 00:46 |
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| bluelightning | Smigers: rpm -qa | grep libX11.*686 | 00:55 |
| bluelightning | Smigers: or actually, rpm -qa | grep libX11 | 00:55 |
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| bluelightning | well, FWIW I was able to build qemu-native on my F19 VM here... | 02:15 |
| * bluelightning needs sleep | 02:15 | |
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| Smigers | build]$ rpm -qa | grep libX11 | 08:59 |
| Smigers | libX11-1.6.0-1.fc19.i686 | 08:59 |
| Smigers | libX11-common-1.6.0-1.fc19.noarch | 08:59 |
| Smigers | libX11-1.6.0-1.fc19.x86_64 | 08:59 |
| Smigers | libX11-devel-1.6.0-1.fc19.i686 | 08:59 |
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| Smigers | . | 11:01 |
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| Smigers | . | 13:58 |
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| Smigers | I am still struggling to find the root cause of my build issue | 14:17 |
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| Smigers | Yocto is far more complicated than it needs to be | 15:06 |
| RP | Smigers: comments like that are not constructive | 15:08 |
| Smigers | Depends upon how you look at it | 15:08 |
| RP | Smigers: well, I could say you don't know what you're talking about. You would probably find that offensive. | 15:10 |
| Smigers | I have been reading the documentation for 4 hours, and I still have no clue how to begin to find why my build is failing | 15:10 |
| RP | Smigers: ok, I looked back through the irc logs and it seems you have a Fedora 19 system with a rather strange mix of 32 and 64 bit libraries on it | 15:11 |
| Smigers | A strange mix ? | 15:12 |
| RP | Smigers: well, you have "libX11-devel-1.6.0-1.fc19.i686" but not a x64_64 bit version of that yet your system is primarily x86_64 | 15:12 |
| RP | Smigers: can you install the x86_64 version of that or remove the i686 one? | 15:13 |
| Smigers | Why is that important ? The build system shouldn't be looking on my machine for anything | 15:13 |
| RP | Smigers: If we can figure out what the problem is, we can likely find ways to make our build work | 15:13 |
| Smigers | sorry, that's too general a statement | 15:13 |
| RP | Smigers: well clearly it isn't working and I agree that it should. We will have to change something to make it work | 15:14 |
| Smigers | The build system should only use a very minimal set of tools (already compiled) resident on my machine | 15:14 |
| RP | Smigers: we can either try and figure out what in the installtion is causing the problem, or we can try patching the build system to address this | 15:14 |
| Smigers | It should not be looking at header files or link libraries except those that reside within the yocto source tree | 15:15 |
| RP | Smigers: that is complete and utter rubbish. You can't compile software to run on the system without looking at the system headers | 15:15 |
| RP | Smigers: keep in mind there are two classes of program, ones for the build system (the one you run the build on) and ones for the target system | 15:16 |
| Smigers | Sure | 15:16 |
| RP | Smigers: its ones of the first type (-native) which are failing | 15:16 |
| Smigers | Why would Yocto want to build anything for the host system ? | 15:17 |
| Smigers | build system | 15:17 |
| Smigers | And even if it does, it should download the source for what it needs | 15:18 |
| RP | Smigers: We do this since we need specific versions of things or things with specific patches applied | 15:18 |
| Smigers | exactly. If some specific version is required, it should be downloaded and built | 15:19 |
| RP | Smigers: we do this in most cases. There are is one particular exception which is qemu-native | 15:20 |
| Smigers | What's so special about that | 15:20 |
| RP | Smigers: are you prepared to try something to see if we can make your build work? | 15:21 |
| Smigers | yes | 15:21 |
| RP | Smigers: specifically, add this line to your conf/local.conf file: | 15:22 |
| RP | EXTRA_OECONF_append_pn-qemu-native = " --disable-sdl" | 15:22 |
| RP | Smigers: then do "bitbake qemu-native -c clean" and then try a build again | 15:22 |
| RP | Smigers: the space between the " and -- is important | 15:23 |
| Smigers | and what is that cryptic parameter doing ? | 15:23 |
| RP | Smigers: its adding "--disable-sdl" to the configure commandline for the qemu-native package | 15:23 |
| RP | Smigers: the theory being if we force sdl to disabled, it shouldn't need libx11 | 15:24 |
| Smigers | Don't you think it's lame that you have to leave a space even though you are doing an 'append' | 15:24 |
| RP | Smigers: As I hinted at previously, this option usually "floats", its one of the very few that do | 15:24 |
| Smigers | but, yes, just a sec, I'll do it | 15:24 |
| RP | Smigers: depends if you'd like to be able to append to something like PATH which is ":" separated... | 15:24 |
| Smigers | OK, another comment which you'll find objectionable. Why is bitbake parsing ALL the recipes even though I instructed it to work on qemu-native only | 15:28 |
| RP | Smigers: I agree that is something which could at least in theory work more optimally | 15:29 |
| RP | Smigers: In practise there are some tricky issues we'd have to address to make that possible and there are probably more important things to worry about | 15:30 |
| Smigers | If I can be frank, without you getting annoyed. From what I can tell, this system is way too complicated. Have you ever worked with CMake ? | 15:31 |
| RP | Smigers: The system is complicated, I can't and won't deny that. Equally, it does have some very powerful functionality which only works due to the complexity | 15:32 |
| RP | Smigers: So you get something very powerful but it comes at a price. We have done work trying to simplify and make it more accessible to people, and I agree we still have areas to improve | 15:33 |
| Smigers | But it's so complicated that even after many hours of working with it I still have almost no clue how it works | 15:34 |
| Smigers | For example, simply finding the recipe that is failing for me | 15:34 |
| RP | Smigers: that is sad to hear and shows we need to continue to try and improve | 15:34 |
| Smigers | I had to use 'find' to even begin to narrow it down | 15:35 |
| Smigers | You know, the top level directory structure itself is confusing | 15:35 |
| Smigers | Why are there so man meta directories | 15:36 |
| Smigers | what are they for ? | 15:36 |
| Smigers | why is there no directory named 'src' | 15:36 |
| RP | Smigers: each one represents a "layer" which should be covered in the manual | 15:37 |
| RP | Smigers: is the build progressing? | 15:37 |
| Smigers | Yes, I saw that and thought, what is a 'Layer' yes | 15:37 |
| Smigers | layer ? | 15:38 |
| RP | Smigers: A layer is a collection of configuration data | 15:39 |
| Smigers | what does that mean. Making up new terminology for a process that is already really very mature (building OS images) is dumb | 15:39 |
| RP | Smigers: the system is extensible as in you can add in extra layers providing extra functionality (hardware support, extra software stack etc) | 15:39 |
| RP | Smigers: if you want help here I'd suggest you stay away from referring to people as dumb | 15:40 |
| Smigers | I think you mean "the system is extensible as in you can add in extra functionality (hardware support, extra software stack etc) | 15:40 |
| Smigers | notice I didn't have to use the unfamiliar terminology 'layers' and still communicated exactly the same concept | 15:41 |
| RP | Smigers: I was trying to connect the word layers with its meaning | 15:41 |
| Smigers | Sure | 15:41 |
| Smigers | I appreciate that you are being helpful. When I say something is dumb, it's not an attact on you | 15:41 |
| RP | Smigers: Well, in some ways it is as I actually helped write quite some parts of the system in question | 15:42 |
| ant_home | Smigers: 4 hours are not enough to get the full picture, neither 4 weeks | 15:42 |
| Smigers | Perhaps, and I apologise for referring to your decisions as dumb | 15:43 |
| Smigers | wasn't intended as an insult | 15:43 |
| Smigers | Anyway, so, let's assume the change you have specified in my local.conf works | 15:44 |
| RP | Smigers: FWIW we already have some tweaks to qemu-native in the master branch which will improve things. I want to get the "floating" sdl value fixed down there too | 15:47 |
| Crofton|work | Smigers, you owe RP some beer | 15:48 |
| Smigers | I am still confused about why this qemu-native build would need to look onto my host file system and not into a subdirectory of the build | 15:48 |
| RP | Smigers: There is a question of which functionality to use from the build system. In this particular case, we assume we can use sdl (which needs libx11) | 15:49 |
| Smigers | subdirectory of CWD/poky-dora-10.0.0 | 15:49 |
| RP | Smigers: we do this since building a working graphics stack for your build system including things like GL can be hard | 15:50 |
| Smigers | I can answer that really easily, NOTHING should be used from the host unless it's simply impossible to do otherwise. | 15:50 |
| Smigers | otherwise I have no confidence in what Yocto is building | 15:51 |
| Smigers | and certainly no source code from the host should ever be used | 15:51 |
| Smigers | or libraries | 15:51 |
| RP | Smigers: we never use anything from the host to put directly on the target | 15:52 |
| Smigers | So, why was my build failing | 15:52 |
| RP | Smigers: however using the host graphics stack to display qemu windows when running an image in a VM is different | 15:52 |
| Smigers | Why | 15:53 |
| RP | Smigers: see what I said above. building a graphics stack for your build system is both very hard to get right and rather pointless | 15:54 |
| RP | (when taking things like GL into account) | 15:54 |
| Smigers | OK, so what you are saying is that because qemu requires the hosts graphic functionality, it has to link to the hosts libraries. So then I would ask, why is Yocto building a qemu at all ? It's not a pre-requisite for building an OS image. It might be nice to have a virtual machine to run the target image in, but if I choose to do that, then surely, I just download a VM of my choice, and run it. | 15:58 |
| RP | Smigers: correct, that is what I'm saying | 15:59 |
| RP | Smigers: you could remove qemu-native from your build quite easily and do as you describe | 15:59 |
| Smigers | How ? | 15:59 |
| RP | Smigers: EXTRA_IMAGEDEPENDS_remove = "qemu-native qemu-helper-native" | 16:00 |
| RP | in local.conf | 16:00 |
| Smigers | I'm telling you, after reading the documentation till my eyes are bleeding, I can#t understand how to do anything as trivial as that | 16:00 |
| Smigers | What ? | 16:00 |
| Smigers | Why would I add an env. variable to remove a component from the build process | 16:02 |
| RP | Smigers: I suspect the above won't be enough since we do use qemu elsewhere in the system these days (to run things like postinstalls). The best workaround is the one disabling sdl I gave you earlier | 16:03 |
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| RP | Smigers: In case its of interest, I will propose this as a patch for master: http://git.yoctoproject.org/cgit.cgi/poky-contrib/commit/?h=rpurdie/t2&id=34c25872532f8453d1681871a0431d5b040d8ff3 | 16:23 |
| Smigers | OK, I had a look at that patch. Can you explain the design philosophy around these variables. I am mystified as to why you would create a variable like this PACKAGECONFIF[sdl] = "--enable-sdl,--disable-sdl,libsdl," which appears to contain multiple pieces of information, two of which look redundant. Why isn't the presence of libsdl enough to signifiy that sdl is enabled. (and of course by its absence, sdl is disabled) | 16:58 |
| RP | Smigers: we might use sdl in some places but want it disabled within qemu. Presence in the sysroot is not a good indication of whether to enable it or not | 17:13 |
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| -YoctoAutoBuilder- build #52 of nightly-multilib is complete: Failure [failed Building Images_4] Build details are at http://autobuilder.yoctoproject.org:8011/builders/nightly-multilib/builds/52 | 18:38 | |
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| Smigers | . | 18:58 |
| Smigers | No, I mean rather than PACKAGECONFIF[sdl] = "--enable-sdl,--disable-sdl,libsdl," Why can#t you just do somethign like PACKAGECONFIF += "libsdl" to indicate you want to use SLD, and nothing (or perhaps an alternative) if you don't. | 19:01 |
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| Smigers | Documentation issue: | 19:09 |
| Smigers | laptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ runqemu qemux86 | 19:09 |
| Smigers | bash: runqemu: command not found... | 19:09 |
| Smigers | [laptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ find - -name runqemu | 19:09 |
| Smigers | find: ‘-’: No such file or directory | 19:09 |
| Smigers | [laptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ find -name runqemu | 19:09 |
| Smigers | ./scripts/runqemu | 19:09 |
| Smigers | ^C | 19:09 |
| Smigers | [laptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ ./scripts/runqemu qemux86 | 19:09 |
| Smigers | In order for this script to dynamically infer paths | 19:09 |
| Smigers | to kernels or filesystem images, you either need | 19:09 |
| Smigers | bitbake in your PATH or to source oe-init-build-env | 19:09 |
| Smigers | before running this script | 19:09 |
| Smigers | I definitely have already sourced oe-init-build-env - in order to build. | 19:12 |
| Smigers | So, there must be another problem | 19:12 |
| Smigers | So either the QSG is wrong, or the script is wrong. | 19:12 |
| Smigers | I think Yocto is an interesting project, but it seems there are some contributors who lack enough real world experience to understand the KISS principle, and how very important that is. | 19:15 |
| Smigers | I really am struggling to criticise constructively, please don't take offense | 19:15 |
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| Smigers | Unfortunately, as is typical of these type of projects, there is already so much momentum that a dramatic change of course is very unlikely. What is especially worrisome is that at this stage, Yocto represents - from what I can tell - the state of the art i cross platform OS image build systems, yet I see so many problems with it that I am fearful. I am fearful that with its current momentum Yocto will become the default standard, and I'll be f | 19:25 |
| Smigers | orced to work with it (like gnu 'make'), even though it really is not particularly good, and in fact I could say, it kind of sucks. Seriously, I have not seen anything in Yocto that isn't possible with a few good CMake scripts. And CMake has the advantage of being a mature product with a simple, easily groked, configuration syntax. | 19:25 |
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| -YoctoAutoBuilder- build #52 of nightly-qa-systemd is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://autobuilder.yoctoproject.org:8011/builders/nightly-qa-systemd/builds/52 | 19:57 | |
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