Sunday, 2013-12-15

Smigersit is fedora x86-6400:00
Smigersfedora 19 with the latest updates as of 13.12.201300:00
bluelightningyes, I understand that00:02
SmigersFor example, I want to build an app that runs on an ARM ARMv8-A  (or something)00:02
SmigersAssuming Yocto supports that , I should simply specify that in some config, and start the build00:03
SmigersI have clearyl tried that already with a target of x86, x86-64, some weird variant called qemux86, and another one called qemux86-6400:04
SmigersNone of the builds00:04
Smigersthey all fail at the same place00:04
Smigersnone of them builds00:05
SmigersThe manner in which they fail indicates that the build system is looking in *poison* directories.  In other words, Since I am running x86-64 Fedora, and the bulld system is targetting qemux86, then it shoudl never look in my system for a link library.  It should only ever look in its idea of sysroot00:07
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SmigersWhy  would Yocto ever look outside of its own target sysroot environment for a library.  That's simply wrong00:09
SmigersThis is such a fundamental problem that I can't imagine what Yocto is doing00:10
Smigersother than something wrong00:10
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bluelightningit can't start building for the target until it's build some native tools00:18
bluelightningthat is why it is looking at your host system and that is why it fails in the same place no matter what the target is00:19
SmigersNative tools ?00:20
SmigersYou meam something other than the toolchain ?00:21
SmigersToolchiain being gcc, ld, nm, etc...00:21
Smigersif it needs it, it should download it and buld it00:21
Smigersor specify it as a prerequisite00:22
Smigersneither is happening00:22
SmigersSince neither sis happening, Yocto is broken00:23
sgw_Smigers: I am curious, do you have multilib binaries or libraries installed on your host machine?  I have not read back, but it seems like that.00:39
SmigersSGW I am am sorry, but I don't understand your question00:44
SmigersPlease provide some kind of shell command which would allow me to answer your question sensibly00:46
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bluelightningSmigers: rpm -qa | grep libX11.*68600:55
bluelightningSmigers: or actually, rpm -qa | grep libX1100:55
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bluelightningwell, FWIW I was able to build qemu-native on my F19 VM here...02:15
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Smigersbuild]$ rpm -qa | grep libX1108:59
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SmigersI am still struggling to find the root cause of my build issue14:17
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SmigersYocto is far more complicated than it needs to be15:06
RPSmigers: comments like that are not constructive15:08
SmigersDepends upon how you look at it15:08
RPSmigers: well, I could say you don't know what you're talking about. You would probably find that offensive.15:10
SmigersI have been reading the documentation for 4 hours, and I still have no clue how to begin to find why my build is failing15:10
RPSmigers: ok, I looked back through the irc logs and it seems you have a Fedora 19 system with a rather strange mix of 32 and 64 bit libraries on it15:11
SmigersA strange mix ?15:12
RPSmigers: well, you have "libX11-devel-1.6.0-1.fc19.i686" but not a x64_64 bit version of that yet your system is primarily x86_6415:12
RPSmigers: can you install the x86_64 version of that or remove the i686 one?15:13
SmigersWhy is that important ?  The build system shouldn't be looking on my machine for anything15:13
RPSmigers: If we can figure out what the problem is, we can likely find ways to make our build work15:13
Smigerssorry, that's too general a statement15:13
RPSmigers: well clearly it isn't working and I agree that it should. We will have to change something to make it work15:14
SmigersThe build system should only use a very minimal set of tools (already compiled) resident on my machine15:14
RPSmigers: we can either try and figure out what in the installtion is causing the problem, or we can try patching the build system to address this15:14
SmigersIt should not be looking at header files or link libraries except those that reside within the yocto source tree15:15
RPSmigers: that is complete and utter rubbish. You can't compile software to run on the system without looking at the system headers15:15
RPSmigers: keep in mind there are two classes of program, ones for the build system (the one you run the build on) and ones for the target system15:16
RPSmigers: its ones of the first type (-native) which are failing15:16
SmigersWhy would Yocto want to build anything for the host system ?15:17
Smigersbuild system15:17
SmigersAnd even if it does, it should download the source for what it needs15:18
RPSmigers: We do this since we need specific versions of things or things with specific patches applied15:18
Smigersexactly.  If some specific version is required, it should be downloaded and built15:19
RPSmigers: we do this in most cases. There are is one particular exception which is qemu-native15:20
SmigersWhat's so special about that15:20
RPSmigers: are you prepared to try something to see if we can make your build work?15:21
RPSmigers: specifically, add this line to your conf/local.conf file:15:22
RPEXTRA_OECONF_append_pn-qemu-native = " --disable-sdl"15:22
RPSmigers: then do "bitbake qemu-native -c clean" and then try a build again15:22
RPSmigers: the space between the " and -- is important15:23
Smigersand what is that cryptic parameter doing ?15:23
RPSmigers: its adding "--disable-sdl" to the configure commandline for the qemu-native package15:23
RPSmigers: the theory being if we force sdl to disabled, it shouldn't need libx1115:24
SmigersDon't you think it's lame that you have to leave a space even though you are doing an 'append'15:24
RPSmigers: As I hinted at previously, this option usually "floats", its one of the very few that do15:24
Smigersbut, yes, just a sec, I'll do it15:24
RPSmigers: depends if you'd like to be able to append to something like PATH which is ":" separated...15:24
SmigersOK, another comment which you'll find objectionable.   Why is bitbake parsing ALL the recipes even though I instructed it to work on qemu-native only15:28
RPSmigers: I agree that is something which could at least in theory work more optimally15:29
RPSmigers: In practise there are some tricky issues we'd have to address to make that possible and there are probably more important things to worry about15:30
SmigersIf I can be frank, without you getting annoyed.  From what I can tell, this system is way too complicated.  Have you ever worked with CMake ?15:31
RPSmigers: The system is complicated, I can't and won't deny that. Equally, it does have some very powerful functionality which only works due to the complexity15:32
RPSmigers: So you get something very powerful but it comes at a price. We have done work trying to simplify and make it more accessible to people, and I agree we still have areas to improve15:33
SmigersBut it's so complicated that even after many hours of working with it I still have almost no clue how it works15:34
SmigersFor example, simply finding the recipe that is failing for me15:34
RPSmigers: that is sad to hear and shows we need to continue to try and improve15:34
SmigersI had to use 'find' to even begin to narrow it down15:35
SmigersYou know, the top level directory structure itself is confusing15:35
SmigersWhy are there so man meta directories15:36
Smigerswhat are they for ?15:36
Smigerswhy is there no directory named 'src'15:36
RPSmigers: each one represents a "layer" which should be covered in the manual15:37
RPSmigers: is the build progressing?15:37
SmigersYes, I saw that and thought, what is a 'Layer' yes15:37
Smigerslayer ?15:38
RPSmigers: A layer is a collection of configuration data15:39
Smigerswhat does that mean.  Making up new terminology for a process that is already really very mature (building OS images) is dumb15:39
RPSmigers: the system is extensible as in you can add in extra layers providing extra functionality (hardware support, extra software stack etc)15:39
RPSmigers: if you want help here I'd suggest you stay away from referring to people as dumb15:40
SmigersI think you mean "the system is extensible as in you can add in extra functionality (hardware support, extra software stack etc)15:40
Smigersnotice I didn't have to use the unfamiliar terminology 'layers' and still communicated exactly the same concept15:41
RPSmigers: I was trying to connect the word layers with its meaning15:41
SmigersI appreciate that you are being helpful.  When I say something is dumb, it's not an attact on you15:41
RPSmigers: Well, in some ways it is as I actually helped write quite some parts of the system in question15:42
ant_homeSmigers: 4 hours are not enough to get the full picture, neither 4 weeks15:42
SmigersPerhaps, and I apologise for referring to your decisions as dumb15:43
Smigerswasn't intended as an insult15:43
SmigersAnyway, so, let's assume the change you have specified in my local.conf works15:44
RPSmigers: FWIW we already have some tweaks to qemu-native in the master branch which will improve things. I want to get the "floating" sdl value fixed down there too15:47
Crofton|workSmigers, you owe RP some beer15:48
SmigersI am still confused about why this qemu-native build would need to look onto my host file system and not into a subdirectory of the build15:48
RPSmigers: There is a question of which functionality to use from the build system. In this particular case, we assume we can use sdl (which needs libx11)15:49
Smigerssubdirectory of   CWD/poky-dora-10.0.015:49
RPSmigers: we do this since building a working graphics stack for your build system including things like GL can be hard15:50
SmigersI can answer that really easily, NOTHING should be used from the host unless it's simply impossible to do otherwise.15:50
Smigersotherwise I have no confidence in what Yocto is building15:51
Smigersand certainly no source code from the host should ever be used15:51
Smigersor libraries15:51
RPSmigers: we never use anything from the host to put directly on the target15:52
SmigersSo, why was my build failing15:52
RPSmigers: however using the host graphics stack to display qemu windows when running an image in a VM is different15:52
RPSmigers: see what I said above. building a graphics stack for your build system is both very hard to get right and rather pointless15:54
RP(when taking things like GL into account)15:54
SmigersOK, so what you are saying is that because qemu requires the hosts graphic functionality, it has to link to the hosts libraries.   So then I would ask, why is Yocto building a qemu at all ?  It's not a pre-requisite for building an OS image.  It might be nice to have a virtual machine to run the target image in, but if I choose to do that, then surely, I just download a VM of my choice, and run it.15:58
RPSmigers: correct, that is what I'm saying15:59
RPSmigers: you could remove qemu-native from your build quite easily and do as you describe15:59
SmigersHow ?15:59
RPSmigers: EXTRA_IMAGEDEPENDS_remove = "qemu-native qemu-helper-native"16:00
RPin local.conf16:00
SmigersI'm telling you, after reading the documentation till my eyes are bleeding, I can#t understand how to do anything as trivial as that16:00
SmigersWhat ?16:00
SmigersWhy would I add an env. variable to remove a component from the build process16:02
RPSmigers: I suspect the above won't be enough since we do use qemu elsewhere in the system these days (to run things like postinstalls). The best workaround is the one disabling sdl I gave you earlier16:03
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RPSmigers: In case its of interest, I will propose this as a patch for master:
SmigersOK, I had a look at that patch.  Can you explain the design philosophy around these variables.  I am mystified as to why you would create a variable like this PACKAGECONFIF[sdl] = "--enable-sdl,--disable-sdl,libsdl," which appears to contain multiple pieces of information, two of which look redundant.  Why isn't the presence of libsdl enough to signifiy that sdl is enabled. (and of course by its absence, sdl is disabled)16:58
RPSmigers: we might use sdl in some places but want it disabled within qemu. Presence in the sysroot is not a good indication of whether to enable it or not17:13
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-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #52 of nightly-multilib is complete: Failure [failed Building Images_4] Build details are at
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SmigersNo, I mean rather than PACKAGECONFIF[sdl] = "--enable-sdl,--disable-sdl,libsdl,"   Why can#t you just do somethign like PACKAGECONFIF += "libsdl"  to indicate you want to use SLD, and nothing (or perhaps an alternative) if you don't.19:01
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SmigersDocumentation issue:19:09
Smigerslaptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ runqemu qemux8619:09
Smigersbash: runqemu: command not found...19:09
Smigers[laptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ find - -name runqemu19:09
Smigersfind: ‘-’: No such file or directory19:09
Smigers[laptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ find  -name runqemu19:09
Smigers[laptop poky-dora-10.0.0]$ ./scripts/runqemu qemux8619:09
SmigersIn order for this script to dynamically infer paths19:09
Smigersto kernels or filesystem images, you either need19:09
Smigersbitbake in your PATH or to source oe-init-build-env19:09
Smigersbefore running this script19:09
SmigersI definitely have already sourced oe-init-build-env - in order to build.19:12
SmigersSo, there must be another problem19:12
SmigersSo either the QSG is wrong, or the script is wrong.19:12
SmigersI think Yocto is an interesting project, but it seems there are some contributors who lack enough real world experience to understand the KISS principle, and how very important that is.19:15
SmigersI really am struggling to criticise constructively, please don't take offense19:15
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SmigersUnfortunately, as is typical of these type of projects, there is already so much momentum that a dramatic change of course is very unlikely.  What is especially worrisome is that at this stage, Yocto represents - from what I can tell - the state of the art i cross platform OS image build systems, yet I see so many problems with it that I am fearful.  I am fearful that with its current momentum Yocto will become the default standard, and I'll be f19:25
Smigersorced to work with it (like gnu 'make'), even though it really is not particularly good, and in fact I could say, it kind of sucks.     Seriously, I have not seen anything in Yocto that isn't possible with a few good CMake scripts.  And CMake has the advantage of being a mature product with a simple, easily groked, configuration syntax.19:25
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-YoctoAutoBuilder- build #52 of nightly-qa-systemd is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at
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